Essential Classics - The Continuing Debate

[hmvman]

..Same old stuff, same waffle, inane “competitions”.

Yes, but somehow it seems a better class of waffle and inanity…

I've stuck with it longer than usual for this programme but maybe only until the novelty wears off!

[Dudelsack]

It’s too early to predict whether Ian Skelly’s subversive style and sardonic humour might change EC’s shape and content, but Boxing Day’s transmission, despite a complete Mozart Piano Concerto, seemed to be the usual muddle of programme planning, a muddle which extended to some of his links. What is clear, however, is that he is able to address listeners on a one to one basis, and intimacy on radio is a virtue. By way of contrast, and with a sense that we were being addressed as a group of recalcitrant schoolchildren, I do hope that you were all suitably chastened by Suzy Klein’s somewhat tetchily delivered reminder last Friday. Seeking suggestions for ‘the perfect companion piece’ to the Adagio of Mozart’s Clarinet Concerto, she repeated that while she knows that there are more movements in the work, this item is more about thinking laterally. What a shame, then, that this item shows little evidence of consistent thinking. Taking as its starting point ‘a well known, much loved piece of music’ its purpose has been promoted variously as: finding the perfect companion piece; finding a great follow on; posing the question ‘what comes next’; instigating ‘a kind of musical conversation’; providing a ‘kick start’ to a friend-cum-newcomer to classical music on her/his journey of musical discovery. This latter concept has now faded rather, but was RC’s favoured take.

This confusion of purpose is indicative of a general confusion about the remit of EC as a whole, about its audience, whether real or hoped for, and about the relationship between that audience and the presenters. The fact that SK needed to warn some of us - presumably the wrong kind of listeners - that on R3 bleeding chunks can now beget bleeding chunks suggests that not everyone is happy to join in a quest for a moment of fame by being name checked on air. Anyway, there does lie the risk of falling foul of her in her so called ‘musical conversation’, one in which there is no right of reply, let alone extended dialogue, and in which her delivery of ‘thank you for that’ when responding to some suggestions sounds more like a reaction to someone breaking wind under her nose than an affirmation of interest and approval. One might have cringed at Rob C’s excessive use of the word ‘interesting’ in response to some particularly daft suggestions, but at least he was politely supportive.

The trouble with this sort of presenter led ‘dialogue’, which is of course firmly skewed in the presenter’s favour, is that it risks alienating those listeners who either get the put down on air or whose suggestions are routinely and constantly ignored, who never have their moment of R3 fame, and who thus begin to switch off. If there really has to be a segment like this then the EC producers’ mantra for the day, every day, might better be that all have won and all must have prizes. And the exhortation to communicate with, rather than lecture, the listeners should be placed prominently on the presenter’s desk. Perhaps more to the point, the choice of presenter should be predicated on her/his ability to empathise with the priorities and foibles of what appears to be a mixed audience. No one said that it had to be easy, and many may dislike the populist dumbing down of what was once the envy of the world, but since SK herself (The Telegraph: 22 Apr 2014 ‘My Perfect Weekend Suzy Klein’) has in the past listed ‘Radio 3 on in the background’ as one of her five favourite things for the weekend, it might be imagined that she would recognise the need for presenters to manage to be at the same time both self effacing and empathetic.

But EC is a very confused programme, perfectly exemplified by Companion Piece in its choice of ‘well known, much loved’ pieces and in what exactly constitutes ‘a great follow on’ (note the populist language) or ‘a perfect companion piece’ (could be an appeal for something more cerebral or for a nice calming bit of easy listening). EC has a hostage to fortune in the alternative option of ‘what comes next’ for here the logical answer will always be ‘the next movement’ or ‘the next opus number’; and serve them right for so banal a question. SK may well still be delivering her tetchy rebukes for years to come.

If ever there was evidence of a contradictory appeal to listeners - one which mirrors the general malaise affecting much of R3’s daytime strategy - it’s here. EC is constructing an audience of two halves. In the last few weeks, to take some examples, Grieg’s ’Wedding Day at Troldhaugen’. Rimsky’s ’Capriccio Espagnole’ and Ponchielli’s ’The Dance of the Hours’ which, listeners were assured they would recognise even if the name and the composer were unfamiliar, would probably fit many people’s definition of well known and much loved, and would be potential starting points for the neophyte. But for this half of the audience just how does The Gloria of Bach’s B minor Mass fit? They are not going to have come across it for the first time and fallen in love with it the previous Sunday, performed as part of the Liturgy in their local place of worship, are they? They might have heard Fauré’s ’The Cantique of Jean Racine’ but probably most likely if they are regular attenders at Choral Evensong and therefore well down the path of musical appreciation and knowledge; nor do I imagine that Schubert’s E-flat Piano Trio would be overly familiar to many neophytes, and how many would know, let alone love, Vivaldi’s ‘Nulla in mundo pax sincera’ - oh, but wait a moment: we were told that it was used in the soundtrack of the movie ‘Shine’, so that’s fine. And it even inspired a suggestion for Puccini’s ’O mio babbino caro’ as the companion piece because it too featured in a film (‘A room with a view’) which made one listener begin to appreciate classical music. Vivaldi to Puccini: it’s about as arbitrary as reaching Mornington Crescent on R4’s ’I’m sorry, I haven’t a clue’. Perhaps it’s a case of BBC appropriation of Don Alfonso’s advice to Ferrando and Guglielmo translated to a new strategic ‘vision’ in New Broadcasting House: ’Saldo amico ... finem lauda’. But then I recall that one translation rendered that as ’The beginning is amusing, but tomorrow comes the sorrow.’

There was a time when I imagined that the Companion Piece had been chosen in advance by the production team and that a suitable recommendation for it would then be found or created. But given some left field listener led choices which would be unlikely to have been predicted - anyone for Zelenka, for example - I begin to think that this feature is in fact a form of audience research to establish the profile of its audience in terms both of the amount of listener involvement and/or resistance, and as an indication of the range and depth of its musical knowledge. Any such information has, of course, sampling limitations predicated on the self selective nature of the respondents, but is a useful supplement to RAJAR.

The specific problems of the Companion Piece feature stand for the wider problems of EC as a whole, which in turn stand for the problems of much of R3’s mid-morning output, exemplary exceptions to the malaise being Composer of the Week and Record Review, both still distinguished - at least as I write this - by seriousness of content and presenters of authority. And can I emphasise that I think that when it comes to presenting skills SK is fluent and impressive on television. She understands how to talk to the camera and how to engage with and inform viewers in a presenter-led documentary. The sad thing is that those qualities which make her an authoritative presence on camera militate against an equally effective presence in front of a R3 microphone. Perhaps the expectation was that her seriousness would bring credibility to a show with an increasingly populist bent which is alienating serious listeners, and that she would be a nice contrast to the nice but bumbling RC, but she is wrongly cast in EC, just as EC is wrongly cast for a three hour five day mid-morning slot, an almost impossible one where however good the presenter the familiarity of fifteen hours per week is almost inevitably going to breed contempt.

Good luck, Skellers, and a Happy New Year to you when it comes.

[french frank]

An excellent read, Dudelsack. Welcome back - and a Happy New Year to you !

[Richard Tarleton]

And can I emphasise that I think that when it comes to presenting skills SK is fluent and impressive on television. She understands how to talk to the camera and how to engage with and inform viewers in a presenter-led documentary. The sad thing is that those qualities which make her an authoritative presence on camera militate against an equally effective presence in front of a R3 microphone. Perhaps the expectation was that her seriousness would bring credibility to a show with an increasingly populist bent which is alienating serious listeners, and that she would be a nice contrast to the nice but bumbling RC, but she is wrongly cast in EC, just as EC is wrongly cast for a three hour five day mid-morning slot, an almost impossible one where however good the presenter the familiarity of fifteen hours per week is almost inevitably going to breed contempt.

Indeed - back on my favourite subject - on television, SK is usually in Adult>Adult mode, and is (mostly) fine. On EC she reverts all too frequently to (bossy) Parent>Child. I really wish they understood it. SK needs to examine her ego state, just as we are invited to do on management courses.

[DracoM]

IS sounds like a bemused care-home assistant, bumbles and fumbles his way through the bits and pieces, the debris of an already discredited format. Putting him in there has served to mark just how bankrupt and demeaning the formula is.

Cowan at least gave it some weight now and again. A mess of their own making based on a major misunderstanding of what R3 is about.

If they're that keen to pump social media, why don't they look more closely at how unanimous listeners seem to be on how tiresome the prog has become as the production team stoop to ever more desperate game-show tricks to entice.

[Serial_Apologist]

It’s too early to predict whether Ian Skelly’s subversive style and sardonic humour might change EC’s shape and content, but Boxing Day’s transmission, despite a complete Mozart Piano Concerto, seemed to be the usual muddle of programme planning, a muddle which extended to some of his links. What is clear, however, is that he is able to address listeners on a one to one basis, and intimacy on radio is a virtue. By way of contrast, and with a sense that we were being addressed as a group of recalcitrant schoolchildren, I do hope that you were all suitably chastened by Suzy Klein’s somewhat tetchily delivered reminder last Friday. Seeking suggestions for ‘the perfect companion piece’ to the Adagio of Mozart’s Clarinet Concerto, she repeated that while she knows that there are more movements in the work, this item is more about thinking laterally. What a shame, then, that this item shows little evidence of consistent thinking. Taking as its starting point ‘a well known, much loved piece of music’ its purpose has been promoted variously as: finding the perfect companion piece; finding a great follow on; posing the question ‘what comes next’; instigating ‘a kind of musical conversation’; providing a ‘kick start’ to a friend-cum-newcomer to classical music on her/his journey of musical discovery. This latter concept has now faded rather, but was RC’s favoured take.

This confusion of purpose is indicative of a general confusion about the remit of EC as a whole, about its audience, whether real or hoped for, and about the relationship between that audience and the presenters. The fact that SK needed to warn some of us - presumably the wrong kind of listeners - that on R3 bleeding chunks can now beget bleeding chunks suggests that not everyone is happy to join in a quest for a moment of fame by being name checked on air. Anyway, there does lie the risk of falling foul of her in her so called ‘musical conversation’, one in which there is no right of reply, let alone extended dialogue, and in which her delivery of ‘thank you for that’ when responding to some suggestions sounds more like a reaction to someone breaking wind under her nose than an affirmation of interest and approval. One might have cringed at Rob C’s excessive use of the word ‘interesting’ in response to some particularly daft suggestions, but at least he was politely supportive.

The trouble with this sort of presenter led ‘dialogue’, which is of course firmly skewed in the presenter’s favour, is that it risks alienating those listeners who either get the put down on air or whose suggestions are routinely and constantly ignored, who never have their moment of R3 fame, and who thus begin to switch off. If there really has to be a segment like this then the EC producers’ mantra for the day, every day, might better be that all have won and all must have prizes. And the exhortation to communicate with, rather than lecture, the listeners should be placed prominently on the presenter’s desk. Perhaps more to the point, the choice of presenter should be predicated on her/his ability to empathise with the priorities and foibles of what appears to be a mixed audience. No one said that it had to be easy, and many may dislike the populist dumbing down of what was once the envy of the world, but since SK herself (The Telegraph: 22 Apr 2014 ‘My Perfect Weekend Suzy Klein’) has in the past listed ‘Radio 3 on in the background’ as one of her five favourite things for the weekend, it might be imagined that she would recognise the need for presenters to manage to be at the same time both self effacing and empathetic.

But EC is a very confused programme, perfectly exemplified by Companion Piece in its choice of ‘well known, much loved’ pieces and in what exactly constitutes ‘a great follow on’ (note the populist language) or ‘a perfect companion piece’ (could be an appeal for something more cerebral or for a nice calming bit of easy listening). EC has a hostage to fortune in the alternative option of ‘what comes next’ for here the logical answer will always be ‘the next movement’ or ‘the next opus number’; and serve them right for so banal a question. SK may well still be delivering her tetchy rebukes for years to come.

If ever there was evidence of a contradictory appeal to listeners - one which mirrors the general malaise affecting much of R3’s daytime strategy - it’s here. EC is constructing an audience of two halves. In the last few weeks, to take some examples, Grieg’s ’Wedding Day at Troldhaugen’. Rimsky’s ’Capriccio Espagnole’ and Ponchielli’s ’The Dance of the Hours’ which, listeners were assured they would recognise even if the name and the composer were unfamiliar, would probably fit many people’s definition of well known and much loved, and would be potential starting points for the neophyte. But for this half of the audience just how does The Gloria of Bach’s B minor Mass fit? They are not going to have come across it for the first time and fallen in love with it the previous Sunday, performed as part of the Liturgy in their local place of worship, are they? They might have heard Fauré’s ’The Cantique of Jean Racine’ but probably most likely if they are regular attenders at Choral Evensong and therefore well down the path of musical appreciation and knowledge; nor do I imagine that Schubert’s E-flat Piano Trio would be overly familiar to many neophytes, and how many would know, let alone love, Vivaldi’s ‘Nulla in mundo pax sincera’ - oh, but wait a moment: we were told that it was used in the soundtrack of the movie ‘Shine’, so that’s fine. And it even inspired a suggestion for Puccini’s ’O mio babbino caro’ as the companion piece because it too featured in a film (‘A room with a view’) which made one listener begin to appreciate classical music. Vivaldi to Puccini: it’s about as arbitrary as reaching Mornington Crescent on R4’s ’I’m sorry, I haven’t a clue’. Perhaps it’s a case of BBC appropriation of Don Alfonso’s advice to Ferrando and Guglielmo translated to a new strategic ‘vision’ in New Broadcasting House: ’Saldo amico ... finem lauda’. But then I recall that one translation rendered that as ’The beginning is amusing, but tomorrow comes the sorrow.’

There was a time when I imagined that the Companion Piece had been chosen in advance by the production team and that a suitable recommendation for it would then be found or created. But given some left field listener led choices which would be unlikely to have been predicted - anyone for Zelenka, for example - I begin to think that this feature is in fact a form of audience research to establish the profile of its audience in terms both of the amount of listener involvement and/or resistance, and as an indication of the range and depth of its musical knowledge. Any such information has, of course, sampling limitations predicated on the self selective nature of the respondents, but is a useful supplement to RAJAR.

The specific problems of the Companion Piece feature stand for the wider problems of EC as a whole, which in turn stand for the problems of much of R3’s mid-morning output, exemplary exceptions to the malaise being Composer of the Week and Record Review, both still distinguished - at least as I write this - by seriousness of content and presenters of authority. And can I emphasise that I think that when it comes to presenting skills SK is fluent and impressive on television. She understands how to talk to the camera and how to engage with and inform viewers in a presenter-led documentary. The sad thing is that those qualities which make her an authoritative presence on camera militate against an equally effective presence in front of a R3 microphone. Perhaps the expectation was that her seriousness would bring credibility to a show with an increasingly populist bent which is alienating serious listeners, and that she would be a nice contrast to the nice but bumbling RC, but she is wrongly cast in EC, just as EC is wrongly cast for a three hour five day mid-morning slot, an almost impossible one where however good the presenter the familiarity of fifteen hours per week is almost inevitably going to breed contempt.

Good luck, Skellers, and a Happy New Year to you when it comes.

And one might add that by inveigling the public to determine the "companion piece" follow-on, Radio 3 will be self-exculpating in the "missemination" of its own stated remit by imputing any "blame" to its listenership, when the time finally arrives.

[DracoM]

So true! 'It's all OUR fault'.

[Dudelsack]

And one might add that by inveigling the public to determine the "companion piece" follow-on, Radio 3 will be self-exculpating in the "missemination" of its own stated remit by imputing any "blame" to its listenership, when the time finally arrives.

Absolutely, SA. Interestingly Skelly this morning commented to the effect that EC listeners were proving to be developing into a fine production team with their suggestions; the unspoken implication being that they were becoming, to have a guess at Beeb corporate speak, empowered stakeholders. A fine Faustian pact for the unwary, I'd say.

[antongould]

......how unanimous listeners seem to be on how tiresome the prog has become as the production team stoop to ever more desperate game-show tricks to entice.

Do we know the listeners are unanimous on this ..... ????

I, like most hereabouts, feel the format is terrible - but as to the views of all R3 listeners I have no idea ..... Skellers can easily fit into the format and IMVVHO is making the best of what we see as a bad job .....

[oddoneout]

I rather liked what he said along the lines of 'stand by for tenuous connection number 104' to link from Elgar's 'The farmyard' to a movt from Haydn Symph 83 'The Hen' by explaining the nickname.
I note the schedule doesn't admit to it not being the complete work.

[DracoM]

Do we know the listeners are unanimous on this ..... ????

I, like most hereabouts, feel the format is terrible - but as to the views of all R3 listeners I have no idea ..... Skellers can easily fit into the format and IMVVHO is making the best of what we see as a bad job .....

I did NOT say listeners were unanimous. I said 'how unanimous listeners seem to be'.
[a] it asks a question
[b] it uses 'seems'.

Both exclude omniscience and / or inclusion of every listener / or stats.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Indeed - back on my favourite subject - on television, SK is usually in Adult>Adult mode, and is (mostly) fine.

I've been thinking about this since I read it, Richard - along with Dude's (otherwise excellent post) "SK is fluent and impressive on television" - and I just don't buy it: in what sense is the gurning to camera, the sub-Worsleyan dressing up, the frequent factual errors and misleading assertions "adult"? Given the genuinely adult-adult presentation skills of Attenborough, Al Khalili, Beard, Wood, Graham-Dixon, Pappano, Bartlett, Don (and many others) the nearest equivalent to the SK presentation style is closer to Kirstie Allsopp at best.

[antongould]

I did NOT say listeners were unanimous. I said 'how unanimous listeners seem to be'.
[a] it asks a question
[b] it uses 'seems'.

Both exclude omniscience and / or inclusion of every listener / or stats.

Fair point but on what do you base your assertion that they seem to be ..... ????

[Richard Tarleton]

I've been thinking about this since I read it, Richard - along with Dude's (otherwise excellent post) "SK is fluent and impressive on television" - and I just don't buy it: in what sense is the gurning to camera, the sub-Worsleyan dressing up, the frequent factual errors and misleading assertions "adult"? Given the genuinely adult-adult presentation skills of Attenborough, Al Khalili, Beard, Wood, Graham-Dixon, Pappano, Bartlett, Don (and many others) the nearest equivalent to the SK presentation style is closer to Kirstie Allsopp at best.

And thinking about your post, Ferney, I agree, I was cutting her too much slack....perhaps, just, not quite as bad on TV as on EC....I'm actually prepared to watch her TV programmes, mostly, whereas I'm not prepared to listen to her on EC, and don't.

[french frank]

If they're that keen to pump social media [ … ]

One plan of action might be guerrilla attacks on R3's Facebook page, seizing every opportunity (they are limited) to complain. Right at the beginning, Breakfast was one of the key programmes that they were regularly flagging up until the complaints became deafening and they diplomatically stopped mentioning it at all. There is probably more impact in posting there than here. If enough people were doing it, they would find it harder to ban everyone.

I haven't heard that anyone in our little bubble has been in a RAJAR weekly sample and wonder whether those who hate the programme - but nevertheless listen - mark themselves down as having listened or not. I wouldn't admit it, but then I've never been included in a sample and nor do I listen to the programme.