Essential Classics - The Continuing Debate

[teamsaint]

There's little stuffiness in the Classical agenda, and there's no problem with the occasional 'out of the box' track as indeed Rob used to put into CD Masters which was the excellent, brimming with full works, and informative intros from Rob and Jonathan Swain. What we have now is a Classic FM clone hijacking three hours of prime morning listening which should be playing full works. Why does the psyche of R3 control not twig copying to compete is not constructive and whilst they are trying to attract new listeners they are deserting a large cohort of our ageing population. And Vespare whilst you are having a go at Classical stuffiness, I don't notice the mainstream R2 programmes veering from their predictable fayre and perhaps playing the odd classical piece and saying that's really nice try more on Radio 3. Why doesn't Ken Bruce have a Classical Coffee Break around 10.50 and then perhaps ask Lynne Bowles for her views on the piece played. Come to think of it mainstream R2 does not play much Miles Davis or music at the Jazz end of the Easy Listening (when did you last hear Stacey Kent or Diana Krall on R2?)

Excellent post, Cloughers.

There are "perceptions " out there that are all to do with driving agendas, ( Suzy Klein's Comments re the Ibiza Prom) and nothing much to do with how people access music, and especially music new to them. 6 Music might have an image as young, cutting edge, cool, but in reality its daytime output is conservative and predictable.

Still, and sadly, the BBC doesn't seem to have an issue with talking down to its audiences, so I doubt things will change soon. But they might be better advised to look after their core customers carefully, as there are plenty out there gunning for them already.

[DracoM]

For me, a far bigger problem is how to develop a R3 audience - whatever that means.

The steady decline / profile or necessity for curriculum purposes to include classical music in schools is at the root of this. How do children discover classical music unless schools / parents etc take the trouble, fund the access in the teeth of easy, immediate options?

The disappearance of progs like Pied Piper, sequences of Schools Radio - Bitesize is IMO a limping replacement at the younger end - has created an even bigger desert to cross.

Prediction: in 15-20 years, R3 may well have become Classic FM to an even greater extent than now, INDEED, EVEN IF IT STILL EXISTS. In my late 20's, I discovered Wagner through the Sunday evening recordings from that year's Bayreuth. 'The Innocent Ear' developed other tastes, and CD Masters hugely widened my awareness of types, interpretations, and CE immeasurably increased my discovery of the huge breadth of the liturgical, even though I had sung in a choir for many years.

Which similarly 'broadening' resources would Forumistas nominate now on R3 which e.g. 16-25 years olds could be enticed to dip into? How can the BBC be helped to wake up to its responsibility as a public service broadcaster in educating the nation - yes, EDUCATING? Not pretending, but actually getting out there and grabbing ears to excite and enthral them?

[teamsaint]

If you really want a top down approach, I would suggest that being " event driven" is one of the more likely routes to success. The world is brand and event driven these days, like it or not.
Widening the scope of the Proms,( musically,geographically etc) using the strength of its widesbread brand recognition and could be really powerful, IMO, just as one example.

( and in tandem, a new and varied range of Discovering Music formats would be persuasive too.)

[french frank]

For me, a far bigger problem is how to develop a R3 audience - whatever that means.

What does 'develop' imply? If you just want more people listening to Radio 3 (or equally attending the Proms), do exactly what Radio 3 management has been doing for years: expand what Radio 3 and the Proms do. Late Junction, Andy Kershaw, Brian Kay's Light Programme, World Routes were all brought in to attract a new kind of listener. But does this 'develop' a Radio 3 audience? Does a Pet Shop Boys concert or an Ibiza club night lure people in to discover the standard Proms fare? The evidence I've collected shows that most people take what they want from their new listening opportunities, and then go back to their usual, familiar stamping grounds. Even Classic FM listeners will be lured over by Breakfast and Essential Classics, but once the more demanding programmes come on they dive back to Classic FM. Possibly a temporary boost to ratings but as less and less is on offer for existing audiences and they gradually fade out, the services come to rely more and more on the new listeners and have to expand what they give them.

Brian Kay's fans regarded Radio 3's programmes as something 'to be endured' if light music was only played in among classical music rather than on a dedicated programme. A student magazine editor back in the early days recommended Late Junction, Andy Kershaw and Mixing It, but the rest of the programmes were pretentious rubbish.

When Elizabeth Alker is on Breakfast, maybe hordes of devoted fans will come to listen to her. But how many will become regular listeners and how many ONLY listen if she's presenting? Where does all this leave existing listeners who are getting more and more of what they don't find interesting and less and less of what they do?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Could it be said that the BBC is trying to develop frogs into tadpoles?

[antongould]

Please, no. Not Hank Marvin

Anti Geordie feelings yet again ..... !!!!

[DracoM]

Wittily put, and unfortunately, it feels to be a tad more than a joke as well - as all good jokes are, of course.

[antongould]

There's little stuffiness in the Classical agenda, and there's no problem with the occasional 'out of the box' track as indeed Rob used to put into CD Masters which was the excellent, brimming with full works, and informative intros from Rob and Jonathan Swain. What we have now is a Classic FM clone hijacking three hours of prime morning listening which should be playing full works. Why does the psyche of R3 control not twig copying to compete is not constructive and whilst they are trying to attract new listeners they are deserting a large cohort of our ageing population. And Vespare whilst you are having a go at Classical stuffiness, I don't notice the mainstream R2 programmes veering from their predictable fayre and perhaps playing the odd classical piece and saying that's really nice try more on Radio 3. Why doesn't Ken Bruce have a Classical Coffee Break around 10.50 and then perhaps ask Lynne Bowles for her views on the piece played. Come to think of it mainstream R2 does not play much Miles Davis or music at the Jazz end of the Easy Listening (when did you last hear Stacey Kent or Diana Krall on R2?)

Excellent post cloughers IMVVHO ....

[cloughie]

Excellent post cloughers IMVVHO ....

Thanks anton, and may the Hangers continue their roll up the table. I've already got the first week of Ken's Coffeetime Classical Choice lined up!

[antongould]

Thanks anton, and may the Hangers continue their roll up the table. I've already got the first week of Ken's Coffeetime Classical Choice lined up!

Can't wait cloughers .....

[DracoM]

<< There's little stuffiness in the Classical agenda, and there's no problem with the occasional 'out of the box' track as indeed Rob used to put into CD Masters which was the excellent, brimming with full works, and informative intros from Rob and Jonathan Swain. What we have now is a Classic FM clone hijacking three hours of prime morning listening which should be playing full works. Why does the psyche of R3 control not twig copying to compete is not constructive and whilst they are trying to attract new listeners they are deserting a large cohort of our ageing population. And Vespare whilst you are having a go at Classical stuffiness, I don't notice the mainstream R2 programmes veering from their predictable fayre and perhaps playing the odd classical piece and saying that's really nice try more on Radio 3. Why doesn't Ken Bruce have a Classical Coffee Break around 10.50 and then perhaps ask Lynne Bowles for her views on the piece played. Come to think of it mainstream R2 does not play much Miles Davis or music at the Jazz end of the Easy Listening (when did you last hear Stacey Kent or Diana Krall on R2?) >>

Yes, indeed. So, as asked, how does R3 grow an audience from YOUNGER generations that will save it from possibly a hiving-off or even axe, if and / or when the BBC becomes sufficiently strapped for cash?

[doversoul1]

What I fail to understand is the logic behind the thinking that if radio station A includes, say a couple of pieces a day, the sort of music Radio station B plays all day everyday, then those who listen to Radio B all day everyday will tune into Radio A and will stay to listen to Radio A…..???

Or is what we seem to have on EC is the BBC’s strategy to demystify the perception that classical music is stuffy and boring? But then surely those who tune into Radio 3 do so in order to hear classical music irrespective of the general perceptions.

It hurts to think that this is the direction taken by Alan Davey who seemed to have given us a hope that Radio 3 was finally getting out of the bad old days of WR.

[french frank]

Yes, indeed. So, as asked, how does R3 grow an audience from YOUNGER generations that will save it from possibly a hiving-off or even axe, if and / or when the BBC becomes sufficiently strapped for cash?

I have suggested, over and over again, for the best part of 14 years, that the effective direction would be to have regular programmes of 'broadly classical' (tbd) on the services where the 'younger' audiences hang out. If they don't like the odd programmes on 'their' station, let them swirch off and come back later. No harm done.

Let them know that, for instance, at 10.30pm every Friday night there will be something different, presented by a presenter who's familiar to them and enthusiastic about what's being played. Tempt them in for a year so that those who are interested will start to 'make an appointment' to listen. Do it on Radio 1, Radio 2, BBC FOUR, why not BBC THREE? Instead they fill up Radio 3 with their 'tempting bait' of nothing very demanding or nothing at all classical which will only attract those who discover something they already like: a Classic FM programme, a 6 Music programme while their favourite stations are all clear to purge anything that doesn't fit their popular/populist (either/or) agenda. And most of what Radio 3 does is so 'weird' and 'elitist' it has to be avoided by normal human beings.

But, even if the BBC were willing to contemplate changes of this kind (they show little sign of it), they're pressured by politicians or now Ofcom to earn their licence fee by attracting big, diverse audiences.

[pastoralguy]

Please, no. Not Hank Marvin

Since the subject of Hank Marvin has been raised, it gives the opportunity for a moan. I bought my mother his latest, heavily advertised, album for her birthday. She was visiting us that day so I thought GREAT - a chance for her to hear it through a fabulous Hi-Fi system instead of her little bedside radio/cd combo. My goodness - was I disappointed?! Pop recordings are usually well produced and can sound superb on a great system. Not this offering! A thin reproduction of Hank's guitar, electronic 'strings' that sounded like they'd been downloaded from a cheap mobile 'phone and poor sound quality.

I see it was produced by Hank's son who seems either to have cloth ears or a parsimonious approach to creating a product. Just, imho, a shoddy 'cash in' disc with low musical and production values. Alas, my mother loved it!

[Quarky]

Interesting discussion.

Why was Miles Davis played? Clearly by popular demand.

Why sandwiched between Shosta. Prelude & fugue and Vivaldi Violin Concerto? Bearing in mind that Radio 3 is aimed at the general public, not only a narrow band of knowledgeable Classical enthusiasts, it might:
persuade some listeners to adjust listening habits developed over the years, and
knock some of the perceived stuffiness out of the Classical music agenda.

................I was going to say that Rob's alternative course of action would have have been to forward his requests to Jazz Record Requests. But he may well have done that, since it was also played on JRR - no getting away from it!

As regards Alyn's suggestion for items in some way associated with Davis/Evans/Arunjuez, that has me stumped; it's pretty unique.