Essential Classics - The Continuing Debate

[Ein Heldenleben]

It's less that it has attracted more young listeners as that it shed olders ones by introducing (at least two) strategies to do so as a result of complaints from the commercials. The first time was in moving older DJs to R2 - which was about the time that Radio 2's reach soared, and R1's dipped. I think R1's audience has an average age of about 30(?) which is probably good enough to satisfy the critics. But self evidently Radio 3's attempts to 'reach a broader audience' hasn't increased reach - as was predictable: you start serving a different audience and lose existing listeners because they have less reason to tune in. If they could find a magic formula that served both audiences simultaneously they would be more successful - but that involves a search for the legendary philosopher's stone bestowing youth and immortality.

I agree with you that the strategy is unlikely to succeed, but you can't say Radio 3 hasn't tried in the past couple of decades.

In essence R3 was left alone for years - it had classical music to itself . Along comes Classic FM with a massive marketing spend and huge presenter budget and zero musician overheads. It plants itself squarely at the lighter end of R3 output . The most popular tuneful pieces relentlessly hammered home . Not surprisingly R3 loses audience . Do you go downmarket or stick to your guns? Do you segment and go head to head in peak with presenter led sequence programmes and keep the elite stuff for off- peak ? Or do you do a bit of both ? Oh yes and throw in year- on -year savings necessitating things like repeating COTW and a EBU- resourced pull together on Sunday nights . To be honest they are doing a "fantastic" job keeping the show on the road .

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

In essence R3 was left alone for years - it had classical music to itself . Along comes Classic FM with a massive marketing spend and huge presenter budget and zero musician overheads. It plants itself squarely at the lighter end of R3 output . The most popular tuneful pieces relentlessly hammered home . Not surprisingly R3 loses audience . Do you go downmarket or stick to your guns? Do you segment and go head to head in peak with presenter led sequence programmes and keep the elite stuff for off- peak ? Or do you do a bit of both ? Oh yes and throw in year- on -year savings necessitating things like repeating COTW and a EBU- resourced pull together on Sunday nights . To be honest they are doing a "fantastic" job keeping the show on the road .

Indeed - and you can add the Licence Fee freeze into the mix, together with lazy cultural attacks on "elitism" from people whose fortunes are made from selling to the widest possible consumer base.

BUT - the trouble with keeping the "elite stuff for off-peak" is that the repertoire stagnates: there's no opportunity (as there was in the '70s, for example) for anyone outside the "already converted" audience to hear unusual repertoire on Radio Three. It's understandable that CFM has a restricted, "popular" playlist - but it is for that very reason that I would hope that the BBC would fulfil its "mission & values statement" to "educate and inform" as well as to "entertain". The "entertainment" aspect of Essential Classics may be uncertain (if not frequently unintended!) but what is informative and/or educational to anyone in the programme at the moment? If a publicly-funded corporation cannot aim higher than this, what's the justification for it?

[Ein Heldenleben]

Indeed - and you can add the Licence Fee freeze into the mix, together with lazy cultural attacks on "elitism" from people whose fortunes are made from selling to the widest possible consumer base.

BUT - the trouble with keeping the "elite stuff for off-peak" is that the repertoire stagnates: there's no opportunity (as there was in the '70s, for example) for anyone outside the "already converted" audience to hear unusual repertoire on Radio Three. It's understandable that CFM has a restricted, "popular" playlist - but it is for that very reason that I would hope that the BBC would fulfil its "mission & values statement" to "educate and inform" as well as to "entertain". The "entertainment" aspect of Essential Classics may be uncertain (if not frequently unintended!) but what is informative and/or educational to anyone in the programme at the moment? If a publicly-funded corporation cannot aim higher than this, what's the justification for it?

I agree . But do you ( I mean me as well) ever think that as you (we) know so much about music it's quite difficult to educate you (us) ? For 99.9 per cent of the population Essential Classics is educational believe me...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I agree . But do you ( I mean me as well) ever think that as you (we) know so much about music it's quite difficult to educate you (us) ? For 99.9 per cent of the population Essential Classics is educational believe me...

You are absolutely correct that it's unreasonable to expect very much "education" for someone with "our" backgrounds and experience - and the reason I deliberately cited the '70s was that I was remembering how the equivalent morning programmes on R3 when I was a teenager introduced me to "off-peak" stuff that just isn't featured nowadays (I remember hearing Berio, Webern, and late Stravinsky at various times when I was getting ready for school - and during free periods in the morning when a Sixth-Former). My own teachers used to recommend that we listen regularly to R3 - and in the first 10-15 years of my own teaching career, I did this to my students. Increasingly, I was unable to do this, and by the last four or five years in the profession, I did not do so because kids had kept telling me how dire (not necessarily using that exact vocabulary) they found the experience. The attempt to attract as many of the 99.9% of the population (whatever the success of that attempt - or otherwise) has been at the expense of that former "breeding ground" (I'm really sorry for that image) of loyal, dedicated followers.

[french frank]

In addition to what ferney said: I'm not sure where you get the idea that Classic FM had pots of money. It has had less than Radio 3, but for a considerably less ambitious output. If I understood correctly, it had still not cleared outstanding debts incurred when it was set up (I need to check that reference - a quote from Ralph Bernard).

BUT: It's generally aknowledged that CFM identified a gap in the market - doing something that Radio 3 wasn't doing. There should have been no question of R3 going head-to-head with its rival. The BBC Charter does not allow it, as a publicly funded service, to compete with a commercial rival. In this case it should have been clearcut: CFM wasn't set up to imitate R3 and R3 shouldn't have attempted to imitate CFM. Yes, CFM might cream off some of R3's audience - but that should have provided R3 with the go-ahead to pursue the tougher route. Instead it sought to copy CFM whenever it could, even pinching its ideas.

I do think Radio 3 has been badly treated by the BBC in terms of funding. Quite simply, the various services are funded not according to what they give to audiences but according to what they're worth to the BBC in delivering big audiences. So Radio 2 with not overly costly programming gets more than Radio 3 which has been reduced to producing cheap programmes. But, in my view, it could have produced better programmes even more cheaply - as the supporters of daytine Through the Night would no doubt agree!

In essence R3 was left alone for years - it had classical music to itself . Along comes Classic FM with a massive marketing spend and huge presenter budget and zero musician overheads. It plants itself squarely at the lighter end of R3 output . The most popular tuneful pieces relentlessly hammered home . Not surprisingly R3 loses audience . Do you go downmarket or stick to your guns? Do you segment and go head to head in peak with presenter led sequence programmes and keep the elite stuff for off- peak ? Or do you do a bit of both ? Oh yes and throw in year- on -year savings necessitating things like repeating COTW and a EBU- resourced pull together on Sunday nights . To be honest they are doing a "fantastic" job keeping the show on the road .

[oddoneout]

What is the evidence that it's proving popular? How many serious responses do they get? How many get read out? How many rude messages do they get which do/don't get read out? Amid 800,000 weekly listeners, a handful at least must enjoy jolly games.

No evidence at all so permission to retract unsubstantiated claims(been infected by too much exposure to post-referendum speculation). However the comments accompanying the suggestions suggest at least some thought is being given. Whether the reasoning and conclusions are considered of any worth by the more knowledgeable section of the R3 audience is of course another matter altogether.

[french frank]

No evidence at all so permission to retract unsubstantiated claims

Quite outrageous

Just remembered - I was told by someone with inside information that a few years back (not that many) a certain programme with a phone-in element received not a single call during one programme. Not one.

[Ein Heldenleben]

In response to Ferneyhoughgeliebte #2194 as the posts seem to be flooding in....

Was the experience "dire" ( I am imagining another four letter monosyllable) because of the perceived dumbing - down ? Were your charges expecting Patricia Hughes and the second Viennese School and disgusted by the latter day equivalent ? Unlike you I don't remember the 70's breakfast repertoire in any detail . I can only really recall Patrick Barker reading Keats as a filler and thinking that is how you read poetry, Cormac Rigby's ballet obsession and the Arts Worldwide in concert intervals . Interesting though that it's the presenters that stick in the mind . That and the impression that Clifford Curzon and John Ogdon had a bit of a pianistic monopoly . Happy days indeed . Now the contestants on University Challenge, some of the most knowledgable students in the country , often struggle to identify basic repertoire . So yes Essential Classics is educational or would be if it drew those students in. I suspect it's preaching to the converted as well as clearly alienating some of the congregation .

[oddoneout]

For 99.9 per cent of the population Essential Classics is educational believe me...

So what a pity that even at that basic level it doesn't appear to be considered important to impart accurate, let alone useful, information. This is one of my reasons for saying that what is being done at present could(and I believe should) be done better. Yes it bears no relation to what was available at that time of day in years gone by, but if for many(depending on how one views/interprets the listening figures) it may be their only point of contact with so-called classical music then I think they are being short-changed.

[oddoneout]

Quite outrageous

Just remembered - I was told by someone with inside information that a few years back (not that many) a certain programme with a phone-in element received not a single call during one programme. Not one.

Which in the hands of a suitable gyratory consultant could probably be put forward as a positive outcome......

[oddoneout]

Interesting though that it's the presenters that stick in the mind .

I was thinking that the other day and also musing on how many of them would quite likely now not be considered 'suitable'. After all they often didn't say much, and what they did say was delivered in a pretty unemotional way.....oh happy days.

[Ein Heldenleben]

In reply to French Frank #2195

Classic FM has pots of money relative to their low programme origination costs. They spend a lot on presenters . I am not advocating R3 goes down the CFM route - personally I would like more challenging work at all times of the day and above all MORE HAYDN - I simply posed a series of questions that the controller and exec producers at R3 face every day. I am not sure what the comparison with R2 tells us . I don't know whether the total budget( in the annual report ) for R3 - around £ 32 million still includes the orchestras . The BBC Wales , NI and Scotland sections now seem to include orchestra costs in their sections of the annual report . Maybe you have chapter and verse but if you put the band costs back in they seem pretty much on a par. I notice the annual report loves this cost per viewer / listener hour metric. On this R3 is ten times more expensive than R2 but half the cost of BBC 2 and as for CBBC ....Blimey telly is expensive ....

After thought : Should also add that I still perceive a distinct difference between CFM and R3 . The former has excruciating compression as one small example . Finally on the matter of the charter forbidding competition with commercial services . Doesn't BBC One do just that with ITV One every night of the week ?

[french frank]

Orchestras have their separate budgets now but Radio 3 is more or less bound to broadcast their concerts, and pays them for that as they would pay any other orchestra. So quite a few millions from R3's budget go towards supporting them.

I agree that Radio 3 faces big problems but as I have kept on batting on about: it's the BBC's job to educate the new audiences to classical music, not Radio 3's. Almost the entire responsibility for the repertoire is placed on Radio 3, while the better funded services with large audiences - which logically already have the potential listeners - do as little as they can get away with. Radio 2, I'm looking at you principally, and BBCs Two & Four.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Was the experience "dire" ( I am imagining another four letter monosyllable) because of the perceived dumbing - down ? Were your charges expecting Patricia Hughes and the second Viennese School and disgusted by the latter day equivalent ?

I'm pretty sure that they were unaware of any "dumbing-down" and, of course, could not have known of presentation styles from twenty years before they were born - but they were appalled and contemptuous of the presentation style that they heard. Teenagers don't like being talked to like that - gushing hyperbolic over-enthusiasm is a real turn-off for them. It's more "cool" to be understated.

Unlike you I don't remember the 70's breakfast repertoire in any detail . I can only really recall Patrick Barker reading Keats as a filler and thinking that is how you read poetry, Cormac Rigby's ballet obsession and the Arts Worldwide in concert intervals . Interesting though that it's the presenters that stick in the mind .

Not really for me - although I remember their names as you mention them, and can recollect voices in my memory, I couldn't tell which was which if I heard them now (apart from Ms Hughes). But I do remember the brief but informative introductions they gave to each piece (year of composition, keys, any unusual matters of composition or reception history, and who the performers were) - which took for granted that the work was worth the listeners' giving attention to it, without the ketchup of enthusiastic epithets dolloped over-liberally about it that is obligatory nowadays.

Now the contestants on University Challenge, some of the most knowledgable students in the country , often struggle to identify basic repertoire . So yes Essential Classics is educational or would be if it drew those students in.

But the point is, it isn't drawing them in - it's keeping them away. Which 14 - 24 year-olds want to tune into a programme in which listeners in their fifties & sixties show off their "knowledge" by suggesting that Pavane pour une Infante Defunte would make a good "what next" piece after Bambi - err, sorry; Prelude a l'Apres-Midi d'un Faune (don't know what came over me there!) - a suggestion that even Ms Klein herself could barely keep herself from regarding with contempt this morning, describe it as an "obvious suggestion" (hastily covering her tracks by adding extra ketchup).

I suspect it's preaching to the converted as well as clearly alienating some of the congregation .

I suspect that you're right - the "converted" who are mostly happy with CFM already.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Thanks for the very interesting and detailed reply which deserves more attention than I can give it at this late hour . I find the reaction of your students very interesting and will mull overnight. It is a fact that the default position of television and radio presenters is an almost insane over - enthusiasm .