Essential Classics - The Continuing Debate

[ahinton]

Exactly the same thought occurred to me when I heard the advertrailer.


Well, no - because Stockhausen's Music isn't "difficult". I think it just means "this is what R3 thinks the majority of its audience thinks of as 'Music of our time'" ... which may be right. As long as it gets that perceived audience listening to Stockhausen (and realizing that it isn't "difficult") then fair dos (?"does"?? "do-es"??? "di"????). With a bit of luck, it might even mean we get to hear genuine "Music of today" before the "Late Saturday Night" slot.

It's all of a piece with Schönberg, Bartók, Ives and some of their contemporaries still being regarded in some circles as "modern music", the sheer absurdity of which speaks for itself.

[ahinton]

Maybe it is music of our time in that it was written, performed and broadcast in 'our' lifetime. Does that count?

Only for those d'un certain age, methinks...

[ahinton]

I don't think 'difficult' is intrinsic to the music, it's a 'mindset'. No music is difficult, unless you want it to be.

IMV, difficult often means "this music does not go where I expect music to go, things don't follow on as they 'should'. I don't feel comfortable listening to music that does not conform to my expectation. I'm frustrated that I can't call it rock or something else and forget about it, because it's composed by people from the 'classical tradition' and often orchestras are used".

Absolutely spot on, on all counts! - except, perhaps, that in some senses Schönberg's D minor string quartet and Erwartung might arguably be regarded as intrinsically "difficult" yet those difficulties dissolve imeediately for the listener who is engaged and moved by them such that any and all of their technical complexities seem to be of little or no consequence.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It's all of a piece with Schönberg, Bartók, Ives and some of their contemporaries still being regarded in some circles as "modern music", the sheer absurdity of which speaks for itself.

I don't think 'difficult' is intrinsic to the music, it's a 'mindset'. No music is difficult, unless you want it to be.

IMV, difficult often means "this music does not go where I expect music to go, things don't follow on as they 'should'. I don't feel comfortable listening to music that does not conform to my expectation. I'm frustrated that I can't call it rock or something else and forget about it, because it's composed by people from the 'classical tradition' and often orchestras are used".

- and, of course, Stockhausen is very much part of "the 'classical tradition'".

[Serial_Apologist]

It's all of a piece with Schönberg, Bartók, Ives and some of their contemporaries still being regarded in some circles as "modern music", the sheer absurdity of which speaks for itself.

I still think of Schoenberg's or Stockhausen's music as being more "modern" than for example Malcolm Arnold's, in the same way I think of Bauhaus furniture of the 1920s as being more modern than reproduction early 19th century-style furniture being made today. I would replace "difficulty" with "complexity" because coming to terms with the complexities of everyday living today as expressed by the music of Elliott Carter because (as he said) it expresses those complexities in its technical details and the way they try and express outer complexities and the complexity of our psychology in response, is not the same as accepting that life has to be complex.

[Lento]

Does atonal music not present more of a challenge to many of us who were not brought up to it? Certainly does in my case: which is not a judgement on the music, except to say that, for me, and I suspect many others, much of it is more difficult. One could argue that nothing is difficult until perceived as such by a living being!

[Beef Oven!]

One could argue that nothing is difficult until perceived as such by a living being!

If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Does atonal music not present more of a challenge to many of us who were not brought up to it? Certainly does in my case: which is not a judgement on the music, except to say that, for me, and I suspect many others, much of it is more difficult.

I agree - with the proviso that, if you substitute "Classical" (or "Operatic" or "Gagaku", or ... ) for "Atonal", then this is statement is also true. Because, as you say ..

One could argue that nothing is difficult until perceived as such by a living being!

I would also add that "difficult" isn't necessarily a negative feature ("difficult is good" - Stephen Sondheim) - there's a lot of Music that I love more than any other that challenges my understanding. I've spent twenty years listening and analysing Debussy's Sonata for Flute, Harp & Viola - I think I've cracked the First movement. At this rate, in eighty years' time, I'll be ready to start work on Jeux!

[Bryn]

I agree - with the proviso that, if you substitute "Classical" (or "Operatic" or "Gagaku", or ... ) for "Atonal", then this is statement is also true. Because, as you say ..



I would also add that "difficult" isn't necessarily a negative feature ("difficult is good" - Stephen Sondheim) - there's a lot of Music that I love more than any other that challenges my understanding. I've spent twenty years listening and analysing Debussy's Sonata for Flute, Harp & Viola - I think I've cracked the First movement. At this rate, in eighty years' time, I'll be ready to start work on Jeux!

To quote Lou Reed's widow, "Now, difficult listening hour".

[Serial_Apologist]

I agree - with the proviso that, if you substitute "Classical" (or "Operatic" or "Gagaku", or ... ) for "Atonal", then this is statement is also true. Because, as you say ..



I would also add that "difficult" isn't necessarily a negative feature ("difficult is good" - Stephen Sondheim) - there's a lot of Music that I love more than any other that challenges my understanding. I've spent twenty years listening and analysing Debussy's Sonata for Flute, Harp & Viola - I think I've cracked the First movement. At this rate, in eighty years' time, I'll be ready to start work on Jeux!

I'm sure Boulez would be your best guide on Jeux, ferney - but possibly not in eighty years' time!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

To quote Lou Reed's widow, "Now, difficult listening hour".

I'm sure Boulez would be your best guide on Jeux, ferney - but possibly not in eighty years' time!

- both the recordings, too! It is a miraculous piece: quite as astonishing as its more famous contemporary, Le Sacre.

[Lento]

I agree - with the proviso that, if you substitute "Classical" (or "Operatic" or "Gagaku", or ... ) for "Atonal", then this is statement is also true.

I suspect that music such as Boulez may make a less challenging first impression on those who have not been raised in a primarily Western Classical (or indeed Western popular) musical environment.

[LeMartinPecheur]

If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

It's difficult to conceive of a forest where there won't be some ears (or more primitive vibration sensors?) around to notice!

Or does the fact that the attached brains can't say "I definitely heard a sound" disqualify it from being a sound?

[vinteuil]

.

http://blog.oup.com/2011/02/quantum/

[LeMartinPecheur]

.

http://blog.oup.com/2011/02/quantum/

Thanks vinteuil, I nearly understood that...

But now I'm worried that seismometers cause earthquakes

...but maybe only on the other side of the universe?

[Yes, OK, I do appreciate that we are dealing with rather different scales here]