Essential Classics - The Continuing Debate

[Honoured Guest]

Besides CotW (1 hour a day with frequent repeats) and perhaps Hear & Now (once a week), there are the concerts and recitals which are still focused on the quite-to-very familiar.

Two full-length live concerts today, including Svendsen's Symphony No 1 and two short arrangements by Kyoko Yamamamoto. Not all quite-to-very-familiar to everyone.

[french frank]

Two full-length live concerts today, including Svendsen's Symphony No 1 and two short arrangements by Kyoko Yamamamoto. Not all quite-to-very-familiar to everyone.

You can't pick out odd pieces lasting all of a matter an hour or so, even if presented by the knowledgeable Katie Derham, and think that answers the general point about the daytime schedule from 6.30m to midnight every day. (Breakfast - 2 1/2 hours, Essential Classics - 3 hours, In Tune - 2 hours?).

And a straightforward concert is as 'accessible' to all listeners, including the new listeners, if all they have to do is listen. The point was about genuinely stretching people (the arrangements, I see, were of Villa-Lobos and Piazzolla, quite familiar to many), and extending their knowledge with informed presenters.

And talking about the educational aspect, we have a webpage where someone thinks if Brasileira(s) is spelled two different ways, it might be right at least once (it wasn't).

[antongould]

Exactly, I wasn't suggesting it was either/or! He was given the pieces (on Spotify) to listen to in advance, which is probably more 'sensible' than 'stage-managed'.That bit of the theory I would agree with, and I find no fault (though haven't yet listened - but will) with the RB progs. It's the idea that swathes of the daytime schedule are focused on attracting this audience, to the exclusion of educating/challenging/stretching the rest of the audience.

The audiences that will approve most of the programme are those who either find them set at their own level or who have more of a mission to instruct others than to learn themselves and extend their knowledge.

R3/the BBC seems to divide audiences in two: those who know about classical music (aka 'experts') and those who know little or nothing, and the education/informing mission is focused 90% on the second group. Besides CotW (1 hour a day with frequent repeats) and perhaps Hear & Now (once a week), there are the concerts and recitals which are still focused on the quite-to-very familiar.

Fair response leader and I don't want swathes just a space where the nurseryslopers can feel welcome.

[Belgrove]

Being confined to barracks of late, I have heard more of this programme than is my usual custom. I thought that last week's guest Fiona Shaw was interesting, evidently knowledgable both through her profession and interests, and rather gracious in accepting Sarah Walker's recommendation of V-W 5th (in the lovely RLPO recording with Handley); given her musical sensibility I would not be surprised were Ms Shaw to already have this and many other versions besides.

This week's programme has been a contrast to say the least. A guest who has no natural connection with the R3 constituency and who, self-confessedly has trouble concentrating for short periods of time before feeling the urge to tweet. I thought that Sarah Walker's interaction with Richard Bacon has been unpatronising, unintimidating and, well, patient. It is interesting that Bacon seeks a context to all the music he has listened to so far. It illustrates that people use music for a variety of means, but listening to it for its own sake would appear to be a new experience for this guest and it does not make Essential listening for me.

In the programmes I have heard, Ms Walker seems less inclined than previously to gush over a particular performance and impress her taste and preferences, and all the better for it. I think she does a pretty good job in a pretty humdrum format.

[kernelbogey]

[...] A guest who has no natural connection with the R3 constituency and who, self-confessedly has trouble concentrating for short periods of time before feeling the urge to tweet. I thought that Sarah Walker's interaction with Richard Bacon has been unpatronising, unintimidating and, well, patient.[...]

I've just posted dyspeptically on another thread about this. I disagreed with this view....

[french frank]

I listened to all five features with Richard Bacon this evening and brought all my prejudices with me. However, I didn't really feel the same way as some: this is almost certainly due to the fact that I never listen to Essential Classics and listening, for good or ill, was the sole purpose. Consequently, I didn't feel any impatience or irritation in the way people might if this had been interrupting a regular programme that they enjoyed.

BUT: it was pretty much what I would expect to hear if a self-confessed newcomer to classical music is being 'initiated'. What I thought he had going for him was a willingness to listen and a functioning brain that led him to comment and ask questions. If anything, the presenter's role is more vulnerable: on one level it's a one-to-one tutorial at a very, very basic level; at another, there's a highly critical and informed audience listening in. Vulnerable because the newbie flung out questions that had to be fielded. There was no: 'When was that written, then?' 'Erm, d'you know, I'm not quite sure. Um, about 1940, I think. ['No it wasn't. It was 1942.'] I thought she handled it pretty well and at what seemed the right level for the guest.

The really intriguing point for me is: 'Why did they do it? What was it to achieve?' If you're going to carry out a project like this, I wouldn't do it this way. As a piece of research, I would make it a self-standing programme of 30 minutes and have it running for a year. That really would be a journey and it would be interesting to see what could be achieved. I found the chat about children and guests he had interviewed of no interest. Apart from Richard Bacon, who else were the programmes for?

[cloughie]

I listened to all five features with Richard Bacon this evening and brought all my prejudices with me. However, I didn't really feel the same way as some: this is almost certainly due to the fact that I never listen to Essential Classics and listening, for good or ill, was the sole purpose. Consequently, I didn't feel any impatience or irritation in the way people might if this had been interrupting a regular programme that they enjoyed.

BUT: it was pretty much what I would expect to hear if a self-confessed newcomer to classical music is being 'initiated'. What I thought he had going for him was a willingness to listen and a functioning brain that led him to comment and ask questions. If anything, the presenter's role is more vulnerable: on one level it's a one-to-one tutorial at a very, very basic level; at another, there's a highly critical and informed audience listening in. Vulnerable because the newbie flung out questions that had to be fielded. There was no: 'When was that written, then?' 'Erm, d'you know, I'm not quite sure. Um, about 1940, I think. ['No it wasn't. It was 1942.'] I thought she handled it pretty well and at what seemed the right level for the guest.

The really intriguing point for me is: 'Why did they do it? What was it to achieve?' If you're going to carry out a project like this, I wouldn't do it this way. As a piece of research, I would make it a self-standing programme of 30 minutes and have it running for a year. That really would be a journey and it would be interesting to see what could be achieved. I found the chat about children and guests he had interviewed of no interest. Apart from Richard Bacon, who else were the programmes for?

I heard one of the programmes and thought it not too bad but on similar lines to you the value in doing it as a separate programme of introduction for non-classical music enthusiasts rather than jamming up what could be a peak morning programme.

[french frank]

In the end, I don't trust what they're trying (again) to achieve: getting as many different people as possible to listen to Radio 3. I don't believe they have some sort of mission to educate a new audience to classical music or they wouldn't do it this way. That's how it looks to me, because it's the second time they've tried to 'broaden the audience' albeit in a quite different way the first time. That attempt failed and so will this one (in my view).

On the interview itself, I think Bacon would have been up to talking about his sacking from Blue Peter, since he mentioned it himself. I don't really understand why children were thought more important than what was a news item at the time.

And actually, if they're trying out Bacon as a presenter on Radio 3, he might as well be on Breakfast as any others (past included as well as present) since the main thing is to do your homework, which he seemed to do: there are no pretensions at any higher educational standard.

[Honoured Guest]

I listened to three of the five programmes.

In the end, I don't trust what they're trying (again) to achieve: getting as many different people as possible to listen to Radio 3. I don't believe they have some sort of mission to educate a new audience to classical music or they wouldn't do it this way. That's how it looks to me, because it's the second time they've tried to 'broaden the audience' albeit in a quite different way the first time. That attempt failed and so will this one (in my view)..

Richard Bacon explained that Gareth Malone has guested several times on his Radio 5 Live programme and that this experiment arose from those conversations. As he said many times on Radio 3, RB has started listening to Radio 3 at random times and enjoyed some music but always suspected that lack of knowledge was withholding further appreciation. This was an experiment to present him with specially selected pieces and to give him the opportunity to directly ask Sarah Walker for information which he thought would enhance his listening, and also for her to proffer other information which she thought might be helpful. I was quite interested that with some pieces he'd moreorless intuited what he wanted to definitely know, and with other pieces that Sarah Walker imagined that Richard Bacon would have barriers which weren't actually there, as in the discussion about "ambiguity" which developed after the Berio piece. Personally, I'm interested in hearing how other people who aren't rigorously educated in music "hear" music - that's the appeal of Private Passions to me, often more than the actual musical choices.

On the interview itself, I think Bacon would have been up to talking about his sacking from Blue Peter, since he mentioned it himself. I don't really understand why children were thought more important than what was a news item at the time.

It was made explicitly clear in several of the programmes that the children were discussed to explain Richard Bacon's home listening environment, and also to debate how, as a parent without classical musical education, he might introduce his children to classical music, and to briefly look at the possible benefits of that to the children. That was all central to the purpose of the programme. I can't see how being sacked from Blue Peter would have any relevance to listening to classical music in a naive way. However, it would be interesting to have future guests who regularly combine drug use with listening to classical music, as they would listen differently and hear different aspects of the music.

And actually, if they're trying out Bacon as a presenter on Radio 3, he might as well be on Breakfast as any others (past included as well as present) since the main thing is to do your homework, which he seemed to do: there are no pretensions at any higher educational standard.

Obviously, he was here a guest and not presenting.

[french frank]

Thank you for explaining all that to me, Honoured Guest. I think I made it clear that I was much more kindly disposed towards the honoured guest than others who expressed their opinions here, but I still don't trust the BBC on this. It fits the strategy to increase the amount of programming directed at those who aren't currently listening in order to attract them, and progressively remove the programmes that went beyond what Mr Bacon termed 'entry level', or 'secondary activity' entertainment. You'll just have to accept our word on this.

[Nick Armstrong]

What the hell was the bland cross-over sub-Rock music playing about 10.35 when I tuned in and then out? I know, this is rhetorical, I could check the website - but I'm not that interested. Easier to ask here and make a point at the same time

[teamsaint]

I think it may have been a piece of guest Stuart Copeland's own music.

I have caught a bit of his interviews. Not very inspiring, though RC seems to have got Ron Shafferty syndrome.......

[Bryn]

I think it may have been a piece of guest Stuart Copeland's own music ...

Indeed:

"Stewart Copeland Stalin's Sultry Serenade

"Performer: Stewart Copeland. Ensemble: Ensemble Bash. Orchestra: Orchestra of the United European Culture Association. Conductor: Robert Ziegler."

[mercia]

this was the producer's blog on Bacon, should one be interested

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radio3/posts/Bacons-Classics

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I switched on briefly this morning and caught the D'Indy Fantasia, which I've never heard - rather a well-crafted piece. But then Frau A started shouting at Rob, saying she didn't want to text, tweet or e-mail. I just wish he could rebel without facing the sack from a potentially bullying management.