Essential Classics - The Continuing Debate

[Honoured Guest]

I think that, apart from the programme's original commissioning brief, it's the clearest evidence that Essential Classics is primarily aimed at the new listeners (since they surely don't put on a complete week's programme feature for one individual BBC employee?). That means that the entire period, every week day, from 6.30am-midday (and 4.30-6.30pm) is aimed at the hoped-for new listener.

I think we have a right to ask where the comparable educational content is on Radio 3 for existing listeners.

On weekdays, midday-1.00pm and 6.30pm-12.30am.
With the equivalent of the Music Programme 1.00-4.30pm and 12.30-6.30am.

[Nick Armstrong]

French Frank said that "announcement" was on the R3 facebook page. So the idea is that Radio 3 listeners recommend music to Richard Bacon.

I know what french frank said - but I'm talking about Sarah's announcement on Radio 3 earlier that she would be appearing on Radio 5 Live to ask for their listeners "help".

Don't you listen to Radio 3 in the mornings any more?

[Honoured Guest]

Don't you listen to Radio 3 in the mornings any more?

Why "any more?"

The 5 Live listeners' suggestions will also be interesting! I'm trying not to prejudge, but it will speak volumes if their recommendations go down well with Richard Bacon while a load of Radio 3 (Get Off My Station) listeners prat about with suggestions from the "second Viennese school", chosen to alienate him.

[Bax-of-Delights]

Why "any more?"

The 5 Live listeners' suggestions will also be interesting! I'm trying not to prejudge, but it will speak volumes if their recommendations go down well with Richard Bacon while a load of Radio 3 (Get Off My Station) listeners prat about with suggestions from the "second Viennese school", chosen to alienate him.

So, only some kinds of music should be suggested then? Film music, easy listening, pretty tunes, well-known lollipops, anything before 1914? Is this really a musical journey or an excuse to just play a bunch of usual stuff that has become the norm for Breakfast and EC? Where's the vigour or the danger in R3's broadcasting these days?

[DublinJimbo]

I went to the iPlayer recently to listen to the Afternoon on 3 repeat of Claudio Abbado's final Lucerne performances and caught the end of Essential Classics which had preceded it. Was that Sarah who did the link? Despite rewinding and listening several times to an announcement of the following day's content (including 'my' CD of the week; 'my' essential classic; and other instances of 'my'ness), I was still none the wiser about one of the works she mentioned. Does she always gabble like that?

EDIT: Aha! All I had to do was go back to the relevant iPlayer page to answer my own question. The presenter was Louise Fryer (who can't even manage to enunciate her own name properly).

[french frank]

On weekdays, midday-1.00pm and 6.30pm-12.30am

That's the same programme repeated, amounting to one hour's listening; and after the concert until 12.30am is mostly speech and alternatives to classical music. Classical music for those who know little about it has 7 1/2 hours of the most popular listening time, every weekday.

With the equivalent of the Music Programme 1.00-4.30pm and 12.30-6.30am.

I did put the word 'educational' in italics and bold. Simply listening through the afternoon to a series of pieces of, not always very imaginative, music is not 'educational'. So it boils down to CotW (an hour a day), Hear and Now, perhaps, once a week, one Early Music Show per week, and enriched with a live concert/opera plus some bits of recorded recitals (live on Mondays). Oh yes, let's not forget the music on Through the Night which effectively banishes listeners to the iPlayer while Radio 3 is out in search of its new listeners.

It's not the sort of coverage that inspires the old 'station loyalty' which radio is reckoned to have (as opposed to TV). Pick your way around chit chat, games and some often lack-lustre recordings. And be grateful for it. As you will know, the most popular time for listening to radio is the mornings. And with 6.30-midday given over to our new listeners it largely confines other listeners to the less popular afternoons and .. the middle of the night.

If you click on Radio 3's Fb 'Likes' you'll see that the predominant age group is the 25s-34s; and for individual likes for posts, a pretty significant proportion show every sign of being based outside the UK and/or the 'professional likers' who appear to like everything. Not the typical R3 listener. But, in any case, that wasn't the point I made: any Radio 3 listeners who do listen to EC are expected to 'educate' Mr Bacon, which is not the same as being 'educated' themselves.

[Honoured Guest]

So, only some kinds of music should be suggested then? Film music, easy listening, pretty tunes, well-known lollipops, anything before 1914? Is this really a musical journey or an excuse to just play a bunch of usual stuff that has become the norm for Breakfast and EC? Where's the vigour or the danger in R3's broadcasting these days?

"Should"? The idea is to recommend music that will grab him, and to give a reason if you think that will help in this objective. I think he'll respond well to something off the beaten track, being a curious open person, so any Radio 3 listener with experience of successfully recommending music to friends, relatives and colleagues could be the ideal person to pick just the right suggestion. But, do it in bad faith or for a laugh and you'll fail. If you genuinely have in mind some particular piece from the "second Viennese school" which you think is the perfect introduction to classical music, then don't bottle out - Suggest it!

[Honoured Guest]

It's not the sort of coverage that inspires the old 'station loyalty' which radio is reckoned to have (as opposed to TV). Pick your way around chit chat, games and some often lack-lustre recordings. And be grateful for it. As you will know, the most popular time for listening to radio is the mornings. And with 6.30-midday given over to our new listeners it largely confines other listeners to the less popular afternoons and .. the middle of the night.

Serious enquiry: What do people here generally think of Live in Concert (and Opera on 3) every evening, which I've always thought is the principal flagship Radio 3 programme? There doesn't seem to be much general comment on here - people seem to prefer repeatedly slagging off the most determinedly accessible aspects of the morning programmes which aren't targeted at them anyway. As far as I understand what I've read, the intention is to extend the presentation of these concerts, and interval discussion, interview and conversation, which might be considered educational. I suppose that's of no interest to you if you're not interested in the actual music played in the concerts. And it may not be sufficiently advanced for you, because it has to be accessible to everyone who's tuned in for the music of the concert.

[Bax-of-Delights]

morning programmes which aren't targeted at them anyway.

You see I don't understand that basic premise of targeting programmes to a most likely, indefinable, audience. The evidence would appear to show that not only is R3 not attracting new listeners but is in fact continuing to bleed their core, long-term, listeners. At what point does anyone in R3 stand back and think that attempting to target an audience - and the new escapade with Richard Bacon from R5live is further evidence of this attempt - is essentially self-defeating.

[french frank]

Serious enquiry: What do poeple here generally think of Live in Concert (and Opera on 3) every evening, which I've always thought is the principal flagship Radio 3 programme? There doesn't seem to be much general comment on here - people seem to prefer repeatedly slagging off the most determinedly accessible aspects of the morning programmes which aren't targeted at them anyway.

It may be the 'flagship' in terms of publicly representing Radio 3 as serious and different, but it doesn't attract the most listeners because even Radio 3 listeners have a tendency to watch television in the evenings. They are somewhat more likely to stick with radio because of the concert, but mornings are what suits people better. So it's not much comfort to be told, 'Well, mornings aren't for you. Listen in the afternoon (which sinks to the daytime 'trough' on most radio stations at about 3.30pm) or the evening. Or the middle of the night. Talking of 'repeatedly slagging off the most determinedly accessible aspects of the morning programmes which aren't targeted at them anyway' shows a lack of empathy for those who are protesting that Radio 3 abandons its existing audience for a majority of the daytime.

So you're saying now that even the concerts have to be 'accessible' to new listeners who might be encouraged to listen? Again, 'educating' one audience and ignoring another. Not targeted at me? So I don't listen. But that doesn't mean people are happy not to listen. If someone notices a really good programme, I might listen. But I'm almost not a listener because R3 isn't 'targeted at [me] anyway', so I'll leave the answer to someone else.

[Honoured Guest]

So, Radio 3 invests in Quality with Live in Concert every evening (at the time of day when the most people are free to listen), and beefs up the speech content of these concerts and intervals, and the self-proclaimed keepers of the flame of Radio 3 say they'd rather watch the telly, thank you very much.

[Nick Armstrong]

I certainly manage to do both, and very much appreciate the live concerts (although rarely listen to the live - in the same way as I rarely watch telly at the time dictated by the schedulers).

[johnb]

Serious enquiry: What do people here generally think of Live in Concert (and Opera on 3) every evening, which I've always thought is the principal flagship Radio 3 programme?

IMO the LiC concept was mainly one of Roger Wright's marketing ploys. He was responsible for introducing studio presentation of a previously recorded performance for the evening concert (studio presenter - cut to hall for 1st piece - studio presenter... etc. etc) which robbed the concert of all atmosphere and turned off many listeners. Some of those listeners were probably lost for good.

Before that change the evening concerts were a mix of live relays (as now) and (mostly) "as live" recordings where the concert was broadcast in the same manner as the live relays (though obviously recorded). I doubt whether many people realised that the "as live" broadcasts were not actually live relays.

RW introduced the LiC concept to get himself out of a hole which had previously dug for himself. It is a good idea in principal but it significantly limits what can be broadcast and sometimes the concerts are somewhat underwhelming. A return to a more flexible approach would be an improvement IMO - mainly live but with some "as live" broadcasts.

As for "the principal flagship", it is curious that these days Radio 3 had to have a "flagship" - perhaps that is just a reflection of the fact that a significant part of the rest of the schedule is devoted to chasing CFM listeners.

.... people seem to prefer repeatedly slagging off the most determinedly accessible aspects of the morning programmes which aren't targeted at them anyway.

Ah so long term listeners who used to listen to the 10-12 am slot before it got CFM-ified can just b*gger off then. Is that what you are saying?

As far as I understand what I've read, the intention is to extend the presentation of these concerts, and interval discussion, interview and conversation, which might be considered educational.

Educational? This is a channel that has dropped all programmes that talked about and explained music.

The sad thing is that a great deal of my musical "education" was through R3. It attracted me in the past because it didn't talk down to me. (And it didn't ask me to phone in to say how a piece reminded me of the day my pet squirrel met its untimely end.)

[Bax-of-Delights]

The sad thing is that a great deal of my musical "education" was through R3. It attracted me in the past because it didn't talk down to me. (And it didn't ask me to phone in to say how a piece reminded me of the day my pet squirrel met its untimely end.)

You must have been listening to Martin Handley on Sunday when he requested tweets and emails from dog-owners letting us know which pieces of music the dogs liked best. Perhaps that's the thrust of the R3 programming now - music for your pets.

[muzzer]

V sad as I rate MH very highly as a presenter.

I found myself listening to the mid morning show during the week in the Christmas hols and reckon I could have done a better job myself from my own CD collection aided and abetted by the odd relevant book I have about the house.