Essential Classics - The Continuing Debate

[Bryn]

Is it just me or is there a whiff of an oh-so-polite variety of troll hereabouts?

We'll I suppose the fact that HIPP was not only defined, but it's applicability to modern instrument performances raised, in the recent Haydn string quartets thread does tend to lend support for such an impression.

[Don Petter]

Is it just me or is there a whiff of an oh-so-polite variety of troll hereabouts?

I think you've guest.

[french frank]

May I ask, in a non-insulting tone, if this annoys some of you? I expect it does, but I think many listeners would just be alienated from the station and switch off if it wasn't done.

The best thing, in my view, is to dispense with the acronym on air and just 'spell it out'. Then it doesn't look as if you're explaining. I think it's different on a forum like this where posts aren't specially directed at an audience who might be expected not to understand. What I would prefer is that contributors here should always feel entirely comfortable about asking if they don't quite get something - in the confidence that they'll get a helpful answer.

Anecdote of experience as a teacher:

When I was a student (in French) I remember the occasion when a lecturer referred to a particular French magazine column entitled 'Choses Vues' which he helpfully translated as 'Things seen'. This got an ironic slow hand clap from a class of Honours French students :-). He had the grace to blush and apologise.

However, it occurred to me that if one gives the English translation first, it isn't patronising to then repeat the actual French title or phrase - since, in many cases, there would be various ways of translating it into English, only one of which would be accurate. (Though 'Things Seen' might be guessable.) Hmmm, Pedants' Paradise, I think.

[Sir Velo]

However, it occurred to me that if one gives the English translation first, it isn't patronising to then repeat the actual French title or phrase - since, in many cases, there would be various ways of translating it into English, only one of which would be accurate. (Though 'Things Seen' might be guessable.) Hmmm, Pedants' Paradise, I think.

I think it's perfectly acceptable to give a title in its original language and then give the English (except where blindingly obvious as in "Hommage a Rameau"), particularly given how poor most Brits are at languages. Even where one does have language skills, for example, one need not be proficient in French. In other words, where do you draw the line? Or, it may be that the pronunication of the presenter is at fault (eg Rob Cowan; Katie Derham). Could one rely on either of them correctly pronouncing "La lune descend sur le temple qui fut", for instance?

[Sir Velo]

Though it did cross my mind that Stephen Walsh in yesterday's BaL didn't really need to translate 'Hommage á Rameau' as 'Homage to Rameau', which did come across as a little bit condescending.

I got the feeling that SW was cocking a snook at the whole farrago of the BBC's insistence at translating every single foreign phrase just in case there is someone out there who feels excluded by all this rampant elitism.

[Serial_Apologist]

A touch jesuitical FF.

To give an example: I remember an occasion in Suffolk when a passer by asked me where "Arijaba" was. It wasn't until I saw the piece of paper with "Harwich Harbour" written down that it came to me what was being asked.

Oh. I thought it was either:

a) an incomprehensible Spanish exclamation, or
b) a bus company

[Don Petter]

I got the feeling that SW was cocking a snook at the whole farrago of the BBC's insistence at translating every single foreign phrase just in case there is someone out there who feels excluded by all this rampant elitism.

Yes, he might have been, or, worse, under strict instructions from the current regime to translate everything as you suggest.

[french frank]

Well, I don't know: there was a time when the function of Radio 3's broadcasters was to educate its listeners; now it appears that the listeners are expected to educate the broadcasters.

From the R3 facebook page:

"What's your top tip to hook a new listener on classical music? 5Live presenter Richard Bacon will be Sarah Walker's guest on Essential Classics in the week of 10 February. We need your suggestions to help him on his musical journey - and if you like, tell us what's so special about the piece you're recommending. Email ...; Tweet ..."

So we've recently had Stuart Maconie from 6 Music presenting Saturday Classics (and didn't Lauren Laverne get involved with something?), and all the BBC Radio DJs picking their favourite film music, to be played in a Radio 3 concert. My top tip would be RVW The Lark Ascending because it's very popular with people who listen to CFM :-(

[Bax-of-Delights]

Well, I don't know: there was a time when the function of Radio 3's broadcasters was to educate its listeners; now it appears that the listeners are expected to educate the broadcasters.

From the R3 facebook page:

"What's your top tip to hook a new listener on classical music? 5Live presenter Richard Bacon will be Sarah Walker's guest on Essential Classics in the week of 10 February. We need your suggestions to help him on his musical journey - and if you like, tell us what's so special about the piece you're recommending. Email ...; Tweet ..."

So we've recently had Stuart Maconie from 6 Music presenting Saturday Classics (and didn't Lauren Laverne get involved with something?), and all the BBC Radio DJs picking their favourite film music, to be played in a Radio 3 concert. My top tip would be RVW The Lark Ascending because it's very popular with people who listen to CFM :-(

May we assume that we will now hear Andrew McGregor or Donald Macleod on R1 being interviewed for a whole weeek and listeners to that station offering their choices of hip-hop, garage, funk etc etc to "help them on their musical journey"?

I suggest anything from the 2nd Viennese school.

And the trashing goes on.

[Honoured Guest]

This could be interesting. Richard Bacon is very open and straight-talking, generally without an axe to grind, and provocative in the sense of stimulating thought and discussion and not in the "shock jock" sense. He's likely to respond favourably to appropriate recommendations, but if he reacts adversely he will say so and spell out why. I'd be very surprised to hear that he listens to Classic FM! I hope that Sarah Walker reads out people's reasons for their recommendations because that could add fire to his response on listening to the music.

[DublinJimbo]

There are quite a lot of abbreviations used on this forum. Perhaps there should be a glossary thread

That's a great idea. I am very often left scratching my head as I go through the abbreviation possibilities. It took me a long time to realise that EMS wasn't some newly discovered disease.

[Nick Armstrong]

This could be interesting. Richard Bacon is very open and straight-talking, generally without an axe to grind, and provocative in the sense of stimulating thought and discussion and not in the "shock jock" sense. He's likely to respond favourably to appropriate recommendations, but if he reacts adversely he will say so and spell out why. I'd be very surprised to hear that he listens to Classic FM! I hope that Sarah Walker reads out people's reasons for their recommendations because that could add fire to his response on listening to the music.

.... yes very interesting that the listeners of Radio 5 Live are going to "help" with the pieces to be played on Radio 3 (according to the announcement earlier).

Come off it Honoured Guest - pull the other one.

[Honoured Guest]

That's a great idea. I am very often left scratching my head as I go through the abbreviation possibilities. It took me a long time to realise that EMS wasn't some newly discovered disease.

Forum members don't use abbreviations all the time, DJ. For example, they gleefully diss the privelege of Clemency Burton-Hill, Cambridge University National Treasure, but they never post CB-H is a ****.

[Honoured Guest]

.... yes very interesting that the listeners of Radio 5 Live are going to "help" with the pieces to be played on Radio 3 (according to the announcement earlier).

Come off it Honoured Guest - pull the other one.

French Frank said that "announcement" was on the R3 facebook page. So the idea is that Radio 3 listeners recommend music to Richard Bacon.

[french frank]

This could be interesting. Richard Bacon is very open and straight-talking, generally without an axe to grind, and provocative in the sense of stimulating thought and discussion and not in the "shock jock" sense. He's likely to respond favourably to appropriate recommendations, but if he reacts adversely he will say so and spell out why. I'd be very surprised to hear that he listens to Classic FM! I hope that Sarah Walker reads out people's reasons for their recommendations because that could add fire to his response on listening to the music.

I think that, apart from the programme's original commissioning brief, it's the clearest evidence that Essential Classics is primarily aimed at the new listeners (since they surely don't put on a complete week's programme feature for one individual BBC employee?). That means that the entire period, every week day, from 6.30am-midday (and 4.30-6.30pm) is aimed at the hoped-for new listener.

I think we have a right to ask where the comparable educational content is on Radio 3 for existing listeners.