Essential Classics - The Continuing Debate

[french frank]

the effect of the music involuntary and physiological, nothing to do with philistinism or similar. A knot of tension forms at the back of my head. There must be some research on the effect of minimalist music on the brain, or some people's brains,

Richard, when they had The Minimalists on CotW a while back I had to turn one piece off (I think it was Steve Reich) because I physically couldn't bear it. Hard to describe but it was a similar effect to real pain. I also can't bear to look at certain art works - e.g. by Bridget Riley because I find them in some way 'upsetting'.

[Thropplenoggin]

Richard, when they had The Minimalists on CotW a while back I had to turn one piece off (I think it was Steve Reich) because I physically couldn't bear it. Hard to describe but it was a similar effect to real pain. I also can't bear to look at certain art works - e.g. by Bridget Riley because I find them in some way 'upsetting'.

Minimalists are the Anti-Heraclitus - Nothing flows, everything stands still. (Yes, I'm exaggerating for effect, as they're not all static. I'll happily make an exception for Arvo Part, whose Berliner Messe is exquisite. And Gorecki's 3rd drew me into the whole world of classical music. And Early Music is also quite static, etc., etc.)

[Bryn]

Minimalists are the Anti-Heraclitus - Nothing flows, everything stands still. (Yes, I'm exaggerating for effect, as they're not all static. I'll happily make an exception for Arvo Part, whose Berliner Messe is exquisite. And Gorecki's 3rd drew me into the whole world of classical music. And Early Music is also quite static, etc., etc.)

How very strange. It is very much the (ebb and) flow in much 'minimalist' music which I find one of its major characteristics, Reich's Music for Mallet Instruments, Organ and Voices being a prime example. Indeed, one can never dip one's toe into flowing 'river' of the work in the same place twice. The relationship of its constituent parts are continually changing, though one might miss the fact on casual encounter, as indeed with the constantly changing composition of a river.

[Serial_Apologist]

Thank you on both counts Bryn.

I've just googled Effect on listener of minimalist music, in an attempt to understand its effect on me. It seems to be a huge subject.

Almost a subject for a thread in its own right! Have we had one?

I first experienced "Drumming" when Steve Reich toured the work with his ensemble in maybe 1970. From what I remember - though I could be wrong here - Reich explained that he had reached the notion of group performing repeating and overlapping varispeeded loop figures from first of all taping them, and later noting and experiencing their trance-inducing effects on consciousness in certain types of ritual, reproducible outwith their traditions through the strict attention focussing disciplines required of performers and listeners by the music. Imv Minmalism was valuable practice within such non-drug consciousness change-inducing limits; the problem came when some Minimalists elected to superimpose Western enharmonic conventions, thereby rendering musical analogies with earlier stages of Western music, eg the "Daybreak" movement from "Daphnis" or the first of the same composer's Mallarme settings, that negated "bare Minimalisms'" intrinsic power. Juxtaposed Minimalist techniques of this kind tend to make poor comparisons with the abovementioned works, I think.

[Serial_Apologist]

How very strange. It is very much the (ebb and) flow in much 'minimalist' music which I find one of its major characteristics, Reich's Music for Mallet Instruments, Organ and Voices being a prime example. Indeed, one can never dip one's toe into flowing 'river' of the work in the same place twice. The relationship of its constituent parts are continually changing, though one might miss the fact on casual encounter, as indeed with the constantly changing composition of a river.

An escape from aesthetics of a complex world refracted through the artist, disengagement; or therapy, unification around "minimal demands"?

How valid are these analogies? I always want something more to be happening over those repetitions - improvisation (as with Trevor Watts's Moire Drum Orchestra f.ex) - something more with which to engage .

[Bryn]

Almost a subject for a thread in its own right! Have we had one?

I first experienced "Drumming" when Steve Reich toured the work with his ensemble in maybe 1970. From what I remember - though I could be wrong here - Reich explained that he had reached the notion of group performing repeating and overlapping varispeeded loop figures from first of all taping them, and later noting and experiencing their trance-inducing effects on consciousness in certain types of ritual, reproducible outwith their traditions through the strict attention focussing disciplines required of performers and listeners by the music. Imv Minmalism was valuable practice within such non-drug consciousness change-inducing limits; the problem came when some Minimalists elected to superimpose Western enharmonic conventions, thereby rendering musical analogies with earlier stages of Western music, eg the "Daybreak" movement from "Daphnis" or the first of the same composer's Mallarme settings, that negated "bare Minimalisms'" intrinsic power. Juxtaposed Minimalist techniques of this kind tend to make poor comparisons with the abovementioned works, I think.

I'll happily drink to that. Drumming in the Hayward Gallery, among the Rothkos, was rather special. Cardew got us all playing around with the basic rhythm in his Morley College Experimental Music class.

[french frank]

Here we seem to get down simply to what the individual appreciates (literal sense of the word: pretium). So it's clear that for many/most people there are no adverse neurological effects.

[Richard Tarleton]

Here we seem to get down simply to what the individual appreciates (literal sense of the word: pretium). So it's clear that for many/most people there are no adverse neurological effects.

[Bryn]

This was he first work of Reich I got to know (Chris Hobbs used to practice it quite a bit before the start of the Morley College Experimental Music classes). This though is a quite incredible feat:

[Richard Tarleton]

I should just like to make clear - if anyone else is listening this morning - that "Richard from West Wales" who had a go at the brain teaser just now is not, repeat not, me. There must be another one

[amateur51]

This was he first work of Reich I got to know (Chris Hobbs used to practice it quite a bit before the start of the Morley College Experimental Music classes). This though is a quite incredible feat:

Remarkable, both as a creation and as a recreation.

Somehow I was expecting something more like ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HdnjTCMzpg

Diff'rent strokes etc

[amateur51]

I should just like to make clear - if anyone else is listening this morning - that "Richard from West Wales" who had a go at the brain teaser just now is not, repeat not, me. There must be another one

[french frank]

I should just like to make clear - if anyone else is listening this morning - that "Richard from West Wales" who had a go at the brain teaser just now is not, repeat not, me. There must be another one

No, but you were listening ...

I see Rob's "Essential CD" appears to be: Dominick Argento, The Dream of Valentino: Tango, Performers: Baltimore Symphony Orchestra, David Zinman (conductor)

I thought 'Essential Classics' was a naff title for a programme, but seemingly it doesn't mean what I thought it meant. My bad, as they say

[cloughie]

Is the opposite of 'minimalist', 'maximalist' and if so what would come into this genre and on the same tack what is 'hard listening', 'late music' and 'retrogressive rock'?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Is the opposite of 'minimalist', 'maximalist' and if so what would come into this genre

From the late '70s onwards, Milton Babbitt frequently referred to himself as a Maximalist ("someone who wants to get the most out of Music, rather than the most he can get away with"!)

and on the same tack what is 'hard listening' 'late music'

Ditto, I'd say - especially as R3 only broadcasts it after midnight!

and 'retrogressive rock'?

Pink Floyd after Barrett?