Essential Classics - The Continuing Debate

[Serial_Apologist]

I recently contributed a message after Sarah Walker played the Holst Terzetto. I mentioned that I'd played the oboe part in a school concert, really only as context for pointing out the oddity that Holst had written each part in a different key. SW omitted that bit, and instead commented that 'you must have been a very good oboist' - which was not the purpose of my message at all. A number of friends heard it and must have concluded that I was a terrible braggart (well, perhaps they had come to that conclusion long before, but you know what I mean).

I am now much more wary of contributing.

Especially given that Holst's Terzetto surely must be one of the most successful pieces of polytonal music ever composed.

[LMcD]

I recently contributed a message after Sarah Walker played the Holst Terzetto. I mentioned that I'd played the oboe part in a school concert, really only as context for pointing out the oddity that Holst had written each part in a different key. SW omitted that bit, and instead commented that 'you must have been a very good oboist' - which was not the purpose of my message at all. A number of friends heard it and must have concluded that I was a terrible braggart (well, perhaps they had come to that conclusion long before, but you know what I mean).

I am now much more wary of contributing.

Surely you could (rightly or wrongly) be considered a terrible braggart only if you yourself said on air that you were a very good oboist? We all know - don't we? - that broadcasters often edit listeners' contributions.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Surely you could (rightly or wrongly) be considered a terrible braggart only if you yourself said on air that you were a very good oboist? We all know - don't we? - that broadcasters often edit listeners' contributions.

Isn't the point here, though, that the main point uct wanted to contribute to the programme was completely ignored, and the focus put on the subsidiary "back-story" that led him to make the point.

Under such "editing", it wouldn't be the impression (favourable or otherwide) that I might have made that would have made me "wary of contributing" in future, but the way that the most interesting aspect of my contribution had been edited out of the programme to concentrate on an aspect that was far less "useful" for listeners.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Isn't the point here, though, that the main point uct wanted to contribute to the programme was completely ignored, and the focus put on the subsidiary "back-story" that led him to make the point.

Under such "editing", it wouldn't be the impression (favourable or otherwide) that I might have made that would have made me "wary of contributing" in future, but the way that the most interesting aspect of my contribution had been edited out of the programme to concentrate on an aspect that was far less "useful" for listeners.

The only way round that is to offer only the information that you want published - in the manner of a press release . These days the “personal” is always going to have the edge over the informative. Every one has to have a story . I think the next time Rach 3 is played I will volunteer that I can play the opening bars as well as Horowitz...

[DracoM]

....but useful to the presenter!!

[underthecountertenor]

Isn't the point here, though, that the main point uct wanted to contribute to the programme was completely ignored, and the focus put on the subsidiary "back-story" that led him to make the point.

Under such "editing", it wouldn't be the impression (favourable or otherwide) that I might have made that would have made me "wary of contributing" in future, but the way that the most interesting aspect of my contribution had been edited out of the programme to concentrate on an aspect that was far less "useful" for listeners.

Exactly. Thanks ferney.

[underthecountertenor]

Especially given that Holst's Terzetto surely must be one of the most successful pieces of polytonal music ever composed.

Indeed so. It was a revelation to me at the time, and a tribute to the music teacher who had the imagination to put it in front of us. I recall that the audience was a bit bemused though.

[gurnemanz]

This may belong in Pedants' Corner but I've just listened to Mr Skelly play Schubert's "An die Musik". He translated "du holde Kunst" as "you sacred art". Some translators do use that word, maybe to have a two-syllable English equivalent which is singable but it strikes me is an unsatisfactory rendering of the German adjective "hold", which definitely denotes beauty, faithfulness and love rather than some kind of holy or quasi-religious status. Music is lovable because it is beautiful and a faithful companion. Furthermore, to modern German ears it comes across as slightly archaic and poetic. Difficult to find an English word that covers all that. Richard Wigmore uses "beloved" which works well because this word is also poetic to English ears, but doesn't contain the idea of beauty and steadfastness and has three syllables so you have to sacrifice having "you" as the first word, as in the original, which plays a big part in the way the song grabs you right from the start. I've seen it translated as "you lovely art" which keeps the two syllables but doesn't really work.

It is also used by Schiller in his Ode to Joy, as set by Beethoven: "Wer ein holdes Weib errungen, mische seine Jubel ein". The Wikipedia translation is the rather feeble: "Whoever has won a lovely woman ..." which sounds a bit like a raffle prize where it should convey the joy in finding a beloved life partner who is also beautiful and faithful. The same words are used appositely with reference to Leonore in Fidelio.

[vinteuil]

This may belong in Pedants' Corner but I've just listened to Mr Skelly play Schubert's "An die Musik".

... do we know whether he was playing a period pianoforte?

But more seriously - many thanks for this. Not pedant's corner at all (not that there's anything wrong with high quality pedantry) - I always appreciate these insights : particularly from Germanists. If I had my life over again I wd've made sure I acquired German, and early...


.

[Ein Heldenleben]

This may belong in Pedants' Corner but I've just listened to Mr Skelly play Schubert's "An die Musik". He translated "du holde Kunst" as "you sacred art". Some translators do use that word, maybe to have a two-syllable English equivalent which is singable but it strikes me is an unsatisfactory rendering of the German adjective "hold", which definitely denotes beauty, faithfulness and love rather than some kind of holy or quasi-religious status. Music is lovable because it is beautiful and a faithful companion. Furthermore, to modern German ears it comes across as slightly archaic and poetic. Difficult to find an English word that covers all that. Richard Wigmore uses "beloved" which works well because this word is also poetic to English ears, but doesn't contain the idea of beauty and steadfastness and has three syllables so you have to sacrifice having "you" as the first word, as in the original, which plays a big part in the way the song grabs you right from the start. I've seen it translated as "you lovely art" which keeps the two syllables but doesn't really work.

It is also used by Schiller in his Ode to Joy, as set by Beethoven: "Wer ein holdes Weib errungen, mische seine Jubel ein". The Wikipedia translation is the rather feeble: "Whoever has won a lovely woman ..." which sounds a bit like a raffle prize where it should convey the joy in finding a beloved life partner who is also beautiful and faithful. The same words are used appositely with reference to Leonore in Fidelio.

Didn’t realise that LVB had lifted that Fidelio line from Schiller. An inspired choice really. Also didn’t realise that the last part of the Ode is a bit of a hymn to drinking and has a rare poetic reference to cannibals. My William Wertz trans has “who a lovely wife attaineth” which really doesn’t work for me ...

[vinteuil]

Didn’t realise that LVB had lifted that Fidelio line from Schiller. An inspired choice really. Also didn’t realise that the last part of the Ode is a bit of a hymn to drinking and has a rare poetic reference to cannibals. My William Wertz trans has “who a lovely wife attaineth” which really doesn’t work for me ...

... good lord - 'tis true!

Freude sprudelt in Pokalen,
In der Traube goldnem Blut
Trinken Sanftmut Kannibalen,
Die Verzweiflung Heldenmut--
Brüder, fliegt von euren Sitzen,
Wenn der volle Römer kreist,
Laßt den Schaum zum Himmel spritzen:

... and a nice reference for junior academics -

Aus der Wahrheit Feuerspiegel
Lächelt sie den Forscher an.

/

From the fiery mirror of truth
She smiles upon the researcher

Still a bit baffled by :

Wollust ward dem Wurm gegeben,
Und der Cherub steht vor Gott.

/

Pleasure was given to the worm,
And the cherub stands before God







.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Perhaps it’s a Blakean moment


“ the cut worm forgives the plough ...”

[Frances_iom]

surely 'lust was given to the serpent' as opposed to the cherub having eternal bliss

[Ein Heldenleben]

Yes that makes more sense than my translation ( from the Schiller Institute no less) :

To the worm were given blisses
And the Cherubs God attend.

[vinteuil]

.

... is Wurm here worm or dragon?

.