Essential Classics - The Continuing Debate

[french frank]

I've explained the sampling to you more than once and you still don't get it!

Approx 25,000 people contribute one week's data each quarter (evenly spread across 13 wks). 3.7% of them listened to Radio 3 during their week.

That is a 900 sample representing 2040k total listeners. Breakfast sample is 300+ representing about 700k listeners

So multiply the main sample by 10 . It's still a relatively small sample for Radio 3 - and the volatility is obvious if you look at the figures. The dispute is not over the general reliability of the figures where the quarterly average is in fact the average of 12 or 13 separate weekly figures. It's over the reliability of the individual programme figures. Breakfast had a good figure last quarter (as I said) but it didn't represent the 'growing popularity' of either Radio 3 or Breakfast: just a good quarterly figure among a set of very up and down performances, thus (thousands):

2016 689
2016 751
2016 579
2016 647
2017 570
2017 651
2017 566
2017 607
2018 634
2018 636
2018 579
2018 612
2019 689

If you are going to mention 'growing popularity', you're also going to have to mention loss of audience in previous years:

Q4 2011 703k
Q2 2012 723k
Q1 2013 704k

The other point that might raise eyebrows is that if Breakfast figures are growing, listening hours are not changing enormously, and last year's overall figures were extremely low, what does that tell us?

[french frank]

Yes - a change of one sampled listener a week on average (or 13 over the quarter) makes a difference to the average weekly reach figure of about 29000. The average weekly breakfast listeners sampled in the last quarter is 23.69, or 308 over the quarter.

I thought my figure was in the right ball park, since I was quoting how many Breakfast listeners were identified in any given week (the RAJAR figure recorded being average listeners per week, not per quarter) - not the aggregate over the quarter. One single anomalous week won't have a lot of effect when averaged over 12-13 weeks, but it puts a weekly figure of, say 689k into perspective (i.e. the weekly sample will be c 30).

Just worked out the weekly Breakfast figure averaged out over a whole year, again to add perspective:

2012/13 675k
2013/14 591k
2014/15 573k
2015/16 599k
2016/17 637k
2017/18 615k
2018/19 629k

Hard to see a dramatic increase.

Yes, the figures are up-and-down, but what she was saying (in isolation) wasn't actually wrong, although based on low samples. In context the Today audience on R4 is more than ten times that of Breakfast on R3. (Today is 1/2 hour longer than Breakfast, so it will pick up more listeners anyway, but the difference won't be that significant.)

Hard to detect a significant dent in R4's Today figures!

Apart from a few exceptions perhaps it's mostly a case of misperception. I wonder if asking R3 to play whole pieces is considered 'gatekeeperish' and off-putting on the basis of that the complainant has the knowledge that there are further movements - whereas the reality is that the knowledge simply comes from repeated hearings and single movements are jolting because the brain automatically expects more?

(You will just have had an email from me re the latest - just arrived). It has been a point I've been trying to get over - that focusing so intently on getting new listeners does seem to involve neglecting the preferences of existing, more informed listeners. Whether one like the phrase or not, that is a definition of 'dumbing down'.

[Andrew Slater]

Hard to see a dramatic increase.

No - only by looking at the last two quarters and the same quarter last year (i.e. the figures published by RAJAR in a given quarter) does there seem to be an increase (with a dip in the middle!) I suppose it indicates the level to which the figures are discussed in the R3 corridors - hopefully more detailed analysis is done 'higher up'. The podcast was only a chat between the three of them - not a formal discussion, so the increase in listening on a programme in which SK isn't involved was probably info picked up in the corridor. (I didn't hear her say that numbers were growing, just that the Breakfast numbers were (hugely) up - no figures or timescale.)

Hard to detect a significant dent in R4's Today figures!

Yes - perhaps there's been some separate research. There are unlikely to be any dents anyway as people are probably listening for a few minutes and then switching over, thus registering reach on both programmes.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Apparently by 'Gatekeepers' she means such people who boast in pompous terms: "oh we always go to Glyndebourne and Garsington and the Proms" and who talk about sonata form to impress people

Are there such people? I know lots of people who regularly go to the Proms, and even some who go to Glyndebourne, and they tell me about their trips because they know I'm interested. I don't think that they're intending to "boast" about such things, and I'd never describe the language/tone they use as "pompous". I regularly talk about "Sonata Form", (it would be inversely snobbish of me to avoid using such technical terms) but never "to impress people" - 33+ years' teaching got rid of any glimmer of hope in that direction decades ago!

I suspect that SK has invented "imaginary enemies" to justify her own aggressively patronising stance.


(And I read "Garsington" as "Grassington", which just shows how non-U I am!)

[antongould]

Skellers said a couple of weeks ago that “ ... more people are listening to Essential Classics ..... “ - so as he knows Prince Charles it must be true ......

[Andrew Slater]

Are there such people? I know lots of people who regularly go to the Proms, and even some who go to Glyndebourne, and they tell me about their trips because they know I'm interested. I don't think that they're intending to "boast" about such things, and I'd never describe the language/tone they use as "pompous". I regularly talk about "Sonata Form", (it would be inversely snobbish of me to avoid using such technical terms) but never "to impress people" - 33+ years' teaching got rid of any glimmer of hope in that direction decades ago!

I suspect that SK has invented "imaginary enemies" to justify her own aggressively patronising stance.

The other two podcasters also seemed to think the "imaginary enemies" existed .

I must emphasise that 'boast' and 'pompous' and impressing were my interpretations of the way SK impersonated the people.

(And I read "Garsington" as "Grassington", which just shows how non-U I am!)

At the risk of sounding boasting and pompous, I believe Grassington's currently in full swing .

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Skellers said a couple of weeks ago that “ ... more people are listening to Essential Classics ..... “

He's paid to say that.

[antongould]

He's paid to say that.

Oh come on Alpie ..... he’s almost a Royal ......

[french frank]

Skellers said a couple of weeks ago that “ ... more people are listening to Essential Classics ..... than to the New Music Show“

Perhaps?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Oh come on Alpie ..... he’s almost a Royal ......

[antongould]

Perhaps?

Perhaps indeed .........

[oddoneout]

If SK feels that there is such a problem (gatekeepers etc) what is she doing about it other than occasional rants in print? I can't think that her efforts on the R3 morning schedule are likely to effect much change - a plummy voice and schoolmarmish tone on a station you(arguably) have to brave the gatekeepers to access isn't exactly going to make waves in my view. Does she do any form of outreach, arranging taster events, appearing on 'non-classical' broadcast platforms or other such 'taking the music to the people' activities?

[cloughie]

If SK feels that there is such a problem (gatekeepers etc) what is she doing about it other than occasional rants in print? I can't think that her efforts on the R3 morning schedule are likely to effect much change - a plummy voice and schoolmarmish tone on a station you(arguably) have to brave the gatekeepers to access isn't exactly going to make waves in my view. Does she do any form of outreach, arranging taster events, appearing on 'non-classical' broadcast platforms or other such 'taking the music to the people' activities?

...or having a trailer across the BBC stations - saying ‘next week I’m playing full on, full works of classical music at its best, come and get it - It’s the new rock’n’roll. Then get all the other BBC stations, including local to feature classical pieces hourly in all their music programmes. Ken Bruce can have a ‘Cappuccino classical’ after the 1100 news, Jeremy Vine could do a Vinetage Classical Piece from a different year each day! David White on Radio Cornwall can have a ‘Flat White’ , featuring pieces daily in suitable ‘flat’ keys - well maybe not that one!

[LezLee]

It was bound to happen - SK this morning announced El Salón México by ARRAN Copland. Aarrgghh!

[cloughie]

It was bound to happen - SK this morning announced El Salón México by ARRAN Copland. Aarrgghh!

Probably an Elvis fan!