Essential Classics - The Continuing Debate

[alycidon]

Afraid I will have to disagree somewhat with you there, and also ask why you take that view? Do you find that the juxtaposition jars?

Well yes, oddoneout, exactly that, but I have to admit that I’ve been rather inflexible all my life - I’m 77 - so I am hardly likely to change now. I guessed that there would be howls of rage over my post, but there we are! That said, I don’t consider it so awful to dislike mixed genres and I stand by my comment.

[french frank]

But the BBC singers mangling of Sophisticated Lady exemplifies why classically trained singers need to be very careful when tackling Jazz. It might be summed up in the phrase “leave it to Ella ...”

I can accept the point, but it does seem like another take on jazz saying 'Keep the classical out'. It doesn't work the other way for some unaccountable reason.

[Serial_Apologist]

Well yes, oddoneout, exactly that, but I have to admit that I’ve been rather inflexible all my life - I’m 77 - so I am hardly likely to change now. I guessed that there would be howls of rage over my post, but there we are! That said, I don’t consider it so awful to dislike mixed genres and I stand by my comment.

Then I still have 3 years to go to reach aesthetic schlerosis!

Interestingly (maybe) Matyas Seiber composed some part-serially composed pieces containing jazz influences in the early 1930s, which were exhibited, I believe, in Hitler's House of Un-Ayrian Activies exhibition, or whatever it was called, I read somewhere.

[oddoneout]

Well yes, oddoneout, exactly that, but I have to admit that I’ve been rather inflexible all my life - I’m 77 - so I am hardly likely to change now. I guessed that there would be howls of rage over my post, but there we are! That said, I don’t consider it so awful to dislike mixed genres and I stand by my comment.

No howls of rage from me(all out of stock thanks to events in the wider world...) nor criticism, just interested to know that's all.

[Serial_Apologist]

No howls of rage from me(all out of stock thanks to events in the wider world...) nor criticism, just interested to know that's all.

And of course, all musical genres are mixed, one way or another, strictly speaking.

[french frank]

And of course, all musical genres are mixed, one way or another, strictly speaking.

And it seems to me that classical music has been as eclectic as any, using folk music, then jazz, gamelan, then contemporary popular music. And yet it moulds it into something new: no one would say that Shostakovich's Jazz Suites were "jazz", that Vaughan Williams composed folk music, that Mark Anthony Turnage wrote pop music. On the other hand, Jacques Loussier's jazz arrangements, as an Amazon reviewer put it so succinctly, "are (I dare say) better than Bach itself."

[LeMartinPecheur]

...no one would say that Shostakovich's Jazz Suites were "jazz"...

Indeed, but isn't the title an excusable misunderstanding on DSCH's part? It may well have been the case that in the USSR at the time, all American popular music, including dance-band and Broadway, got labelled 'jazz' and met the same official disapproval. Hence a wee bit of courage on the composer's part to use the title at all perhaps.

[french frank]

Indeed, but isn't the title an excusable misunderstanding on DSCH's part? It may well have been the case that in the USSR at the time, all American popular music, including dance-band and Broadway, got labelled 'jazz' and met the same official disapproval. Hence a wee bit of courage on the composer's part to use the title at all perhaps.

That wasn't quite the point I was making. Serial spoke of 'all musical genres' being mixed, and I said I thought classical composers had been as open to other musical genres as any (if not moreso). But they made something different. It wasn't a criticism of Shostakovich that he 'didn't write jazz' in a form that the purist jazz enthusiast would accept. I don't suppose it was his intention, any more than Debussy felt he was composing "authentic" gamelan. My opinion. Perhaps I'm wrong

[LeMartinPecheur]

That wasn't quite the point I was making. Serial spoke of 'all musical genres' being mixed, and I said I thought classical composers had been as open to other musical genres as any (if not moreso). But they made something different. It wasn't a criticism of Shostakovich that he 'didn't write jazz' in a form that the purist jazz enthusiast would accept. I don't suppose it was his intention, any more than Debussy felt he was composing "authentic" gamelan. My opinion. Perhaps I'm wrong

Yes, but DSCH was the only one of the three, AFAIK, who 'accused' himself of writing directly in your named genres, and a good few writers have said he got it wrong. A side issue no doubt but I rushed to his defence, probably in my best Don Quixote style. Please direct me to the next proper windmill

[Ein Heldenleben]

I can accept the point, but it does seem like another take on jazz saying 'Keep the classical out'. It doesn't work the other way for some unaccountable reason.

I think it’s more subtle than that. Some classical musicians can do jazz or Broadway. Marilyn Horne and Dawn Upshaw for example . Some jazz musicians can do classical - E.g. NIna Simone . But some really struggle - Dudley Moore was a superb musician and fine jazz pianist but he didn’t have the technique and big sound for the Greig piano concerto. Conversely Yuja Wang is a very good classical pianist but can’t make Tea For Two work the way Art Tatum can - but then no one can.

[cloughie]

I think it’s more subtle than that. Some classical musicians can do jazz or Broadway. Marilyn Horne and Dawn Upshaw for example . Some jazz musicians can do classical - E.g. NIna Simone . But some really struggle - Dudley Moore was a superb musician and fine jazz pianist but he didn’t have the technique and big sound for the Greig piano concerto. Conversely Yuja Wang is a very good classical pianist but can’t make Tea For Two work the way Art Tatum can - but then no one can.

Previn and Gulda were pretty versatile!

[Ein Heldenleben]

Previn and Gulda were pretty versatile!

Previn I agree - master of both genres. Jeremy Siepmann in his book The Piano considers him one of the greats with Horowitz and Pollini for company . I am not so convinced by Gulda the jazz pianist though . Boris Berezovky is rumoured to be a v good jazz pianist . He is certainly an amazing classical one - one of the very few who can get his fingers round Chopin/Godowsky etudes.

[french frank]

I think it’s more subtle than that.

More subtle? Or just that there are exceptions? And Gulda played with Chick Corea.

My thesis is that classical composers have been more open to influences from other genres. Classical performers playing, say, jazz, are what I would term a form of "crossover". Whether they cut the mustard with enthusiasts on both sides of the musical divide (or are just 'novelties') is a different matter. Stretching the meaning of 'classical' to include contemporary film music is a side issue.

Watching this Lady Gaga video is interesting, mainly for the Likes and (more numerously) the Dislikes. Are the Dislikes classical fans who don't rate Lady G or - Lady Gaga fans who don't rate Chopin?

[Ein Heldenleben]

More subtle? Or just that there are exceptions? And Gulda played with Chick Corea.

My thesis is that classical composers have been more open to influences from other genres. Classical performers playing, say, jazz, are what I would term a form of "crossover". Whether they cut the mustard with enthusiasts on both sides of the musical divide (or are just 'novelties') is a different matter. Stretching the meaning of 'classical' to include contemporary film music is a side issue.

Watching this Lady Gaga video is interesting, mainly for the Likes and (more numerously) the Dislikes. Are the Dislikes classical fans who don't rate Lady G or - Lady Gaga fans who don't rate Chopin?

Lady Gaga was reportedly accepted as a piano student at the Julliard but made the very sensible decision to become an international pop star. Every single one of my few friends who went into rock music made vastly more money and , I suspect had more fun , than those who chose the classical route. But they didn’t have the life enhancing experience of daily playing the worlds greatest music . Oh well I am sure they can live with that...

[cloughie]

More subtle? Or just that there are exceptions? And Gulda played with Chick Corea.

My thesis is that classical composers have been more open to influences from other genres. Classical performers playing, say, jazz, are what I would term a form of "crossover". Whether they cut the mustard with enthusiasts on both sides of the musical divide (or are just 'novelties') is a different matter. Stretching the meaning of 'classical' to include contemporary film music is a side issue.

Watching this Lady Gaga video is interesting, mainly for the Likes and (more numerously) the Dislikes. Are the Dislikes classical fans who don't rate Lady G or - Lady Gaga fans who don't rate Chopin?

Lady Gaga sounds far better singing standards as she does with Tony Bennett than making the dreadful sounds she makes in most of her pop songs, but as you say would not make as much money doing that on a regular basis.

https://youtu.be/ZPAmDULCVrU