Essential Classics - The Continuing Debate

[Ein Heldenleben]

Orchestras have their separate budgets now but Radio 3 is more or less bound to broadcast their concerts, and pays them for that as they would pay any other orchestra. So quite a few millions from R3's budget go towards supporting them.

I agree that Radio 3 faces big problems but as I have kept on batting on about: it's the BBC's job to educate the new audiences to classical music, not Radio 3's. Almost the entire responsibility for the repertoire is placed on Radio 3, while the better funded services with large audiences - which logically already have the potential listeners - do as little as they can get away with. Radio 2, I'm looking at you principally, and BBCs Two & Four.

Couldn 't agree more .That's the big change isn't it ? The disappearance of programmes like Talking About Music from R4 - even quizzes like My Music . Also the lighter classical programmes from R2 . All leaving R3 a bit of a silo - and silos are dangerous places to be.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Hi Ferney . If your personal example - of young people being alienated by the tone of early morning R3 - is a general phenomenon then that's not good for any one. I seem to remember not listening much to breakfast R3 as I was a bit of a late riser in those days so it' s difficult for me to make historic comparisons . It was interesting though in the recent 70th anniversary celebrations to hear again presenters like David Munrow . That straightforward , intelligent , style of presentation with no false chumminess seems to have gone out of fashion - in peak hours at any rate .I wonder if young people today would prefer that.
On the 'If you like that you'll like this' feature that strikes me as an example of the baleful influence of the Internet - mimicking that irritating Amazon feature that pushes all the Le Carre novels at you when you search for his latest .
'If you like Beethoven 0p 27 No 1 Sonata Quasi Una Fantasia
Then you are just going to love the Op 27. No 2 SQUF
They're both "fantastic " '

Finally I'm a bit loath to criticise presenters . It's a bit like wedel skiing - it looks easy from a distance .

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Hello, Heldy!

I wouldn't wish to ascribe the reactions of my own students (over five years ago now) as being "typical" - not least because I don't know if my own encouraging them to listen to R3 was at all typical of Music Teachers in general! But it would not astonish me if a random collection of people aged, say, 14 - 24 were given access to the R3 presentation style there'd be a huge majority who would find that style risible. For all the "outreach" the Beeb uses as justification for the increased amount of presenter banter, it hasn't reached out very far: merely to those already happy with CFM. How is somebody with little experience of R3 fare is supposed to feel invited to the station by tweets from listeners who suggest that Ravel might be a good thing to hear after Gershwin - tweets which are then ignored in favour of a completely different piece already prepared?!

Finally I'm a bit loath to criticise presenters . It's a bit like wedel skiing - it looks easy from a distance .

I have no idea what "wedel skiing" is, and doubt that I would be any good at it. But if I saw somebody who was paid to do it keep falling on their arse every time they tried, I would strongly suspect that I had reasonable grounds for suggesting that they weren't very good at it, either!

[Ein Heldenleben]

It's that way of linking turns together usually on deeper snow to make a series of effortless s shapes . A technique that the French and Austrians appear to acquire at birth but requires Brits to more or less bankrupt themselves in an attempt to learn. Your final para more or less accurately describes my stabs at it....in fact given up now . I could just as easily used wind - surfing or surfing as an analogy....I'm no cop at them either.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I'm getting crosser than I'd intended! It makes little difference to me what happens on R3; my CD, DVD, and book collections - as well as youTube, the Forum, concerts, and friends means that I could lead a varied and fulfilled life without ever needing to tune in again. But R3 played a vital role in introducing me to the "repertoire" that enabled me to enjoy such a life. My main concern nowadays is not so much my own pleasure, but that by focussing on winning "back" the audience for the "rival" CFM, the BBC has divorced R3 from younger listeners: in that respect the format and presentation style is making R3 more "elitist" than it has ever been. I don't want to "go back" to a previous style of presentation - honest! - I would prefer to see the station progress forward to a much more widely attracting style than the awkward, faux-chumminess that stains the airwaves at present.

[Bryn]

I'm getting crosser than I'd intended! It makes little difference to me what happens on R3; my CD, DVD, and book collections - as well as youTube, the Forum, concerts, and friends means that I could lead a varied and fulfilled life without ever needing to tune in again. But R3 played a vital role in introducing me to the "repertoire" that enabled me to enjoy such a life. My main concern nowadays is not so much my own pleasure, but that by focussing on winning "back" the audience for the "rival" CFM, the BBC has divorced R3 from younger listeners: in that respect the format and presentation style is making R3 more "elitist" than it has ever been. I don't want to "go back" to a previous style of presentation - honest! - I would prefer to see the station progress forward to a much more widely attracting style than the awkward, faux-chumminess that stains the airwaves at present.

Agreed. Enough of the vocal equivalent of the Pan Am smile.

[Ein Heldenleben]

You are right - it's an "essential " gateway for those who might not have the money or experience to acquire knowledge of the basic repertoire . I wonder if they've ever focus- grouped (sorry) their programmes on a young audience ? Wouldn't mind being a fly -on - the - wall for that....

[Richard Tarleton]

It's that way of linking turns together usually on deeper snow to make a series of effortless s shapes . A technique that the French and Austrians appear to acquire at birth but requires Brits to more or less bankrupt themselves in an attempt to learn. Your final para more or less accurately describes my stabs at it....in fact given up now . I could just as easily used wind - surfing or surfing as an analogy....I'm no cop at them either.

OT, this charming snippet from Daniel Finkelstein in today's Times -

I have bought a waterproof cover for my Kindle. The packaging promises that I will be able to “ski and snowboard with confidence”. Since I couldn’t do either of these things before, it seems a bargain at only £15.

[french frank]

Couldn 't agree more .That's the big change isn't it ? The disappearance of programmes like Talking About Music from R4 - even quizzes like My Music . Also the lighter classical programmes from R2 . All leaving R3 a bit of a silo - and silos are dangerous places to be.

I've just been mulling this over. Radio 2 is now the BBC's darling. It's the 'Nation's Favourite' radio station, getting 15 million listeners per week - and that's music to the BBC's ears, for sure.

BUT. Radio 2 has benefited at the expense of both Radio 1 and Radio 3. In Q1 1995, Radio 1 had 10,514m listeners, Radio 2 had 8,713m and Radio 3 had 2,401m. These figures are not directly comparable with the current figures but they are similar to 1999's - which are comparable. Radio 1 was the most popular station until it was told, in the mid-90s, to focus on younger listeners so it kicked out some very popular older DJs who went to Radio 2 (e.g. Steve Wright, Johnnie Walker, Bob Harris). The older listeners moved over to Radio 2 so that by 2002 Radio 1 was still at 10.5m (but going down: it settled below 10m a couple of years later) and Radio 2 was up to 13m. Then Radio 2 repositioned itself as the middle-of-the-road, middle-aged popular music station, and axed Your 100 Best Tunes, and then Melodies for You, while Radio 3 was being 'engineered' instead to serve the audience for the classical not-too-difficult listening, not unlike Classic FM. All hail Radio 2 now up to 15m.

And, back on topic, Breakfast and Essential Classics are serving the Radio 2 audience - handsomely. This is not a blanket denigration of the audiences for either programme: it's simply pointing out that a constituency which used to be served by Radio 3 in the mornings no longer is. Nor is that audience served in the later evenings ever since these slots were taken over by the variety of 'Other Musics'. But as long as Radio 3 can attract 2m listeners we can have the afternoons and early-to-mid evenings.

[Zucchini]

OT, this charming snippet from Daniel Finkelstein in today's Times -I have bought a waterproof cover for my Kindle. The packaging promises that I will be able to “ski and snowboard with confidence”. Since I couldn’t do either of these things before, it seems a bargain at only £15.

Cheaper than that is to stuff your anorak & bobble hat with chocolate eclairs - you'll never fall over more than once.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Radio Two has also benefited at the expense of BBC Local radio ...with potentially serious consequences for the latter

[Ein Heldenleben]

Why would you want to ski with a kindle in your pocket ? I would really caution against it having recently trodden on one....they don't like it .

[LMcD]

I'm getting crosser than I'd intended! It makes little difference to me what happens on R3; my CD, DVD, and book collections - as well as youTube, the Forum, concerts, and friends means that I could lead a varied and fulfilled life without ever needing to tune in again. But R3 played a vital role in introducing me to the "repertoire" that enabled me to enjoy such a life. My main concern nowadays is not so much my own pleasure, but that by focussing on winning "back" the audience for the "rival" CFM, the BBC has divorced R3 from younger listeners: in that respect the format and presentation style is making R3 more "elitist" than it has ever been. I don't want to "go back" to a previous style of presentation - honest! - I would prefer to see the station progress forward to a much more widely attracting style than the awkward, faux-chumminess that stains the airwaves at present.

It's also divorced R3 from at least one older listener. Gone are the days when I would listen to much of Breakfast and most (sometimes all) of whatever followed.

[oddoneout]

variety of 'Other Musics'.

Are other musics not part of R3's remit? I ask because I don't know, and perhaps it's time I did know. It's possible I'm expecting more of R3 than in fact it is meant to deliver.

[french frank]

It's also divorced R3 from at least one older listener. Gone are the days when I would listen to much of Breakfast and most (sometimes all) of whatever followed.

Yes, first thing in the morning, if I woke up early enough, I listened to the end of TTN and then on to the early morning programme until it was time to get up. Very conducive to attentive listening. And this wasn't (it seems to me) all that long ago - I have no knowledge at all of the 'legendary' Radio 3 presenters.

As for the 'faux-chumminess', I think it's one of a number of attempts to imitate the presentational style of the popular music stations - presumably to attract some of their listeners.

I imagine a researcher listening to these stations to identify the broadcasting characteristics and then suggesting how they can be applied to Radio 3. Hence 'Breakfast shows' and 'drivetime shows', personality presenters, chats between presenters, 'communicating' with audiences. As far as possible, no lengthy 'items' - rather like television where camera shots last no more than a fixed number of seconds before changing to retain the interest, so the music averages out at about 6 minutes apiece.