3beebies aka Breakfast

[Lateralthinking1]

There was an earlier point on the thread about other stations not trying to appeal more broadly. That is patently not true.

Radio 2 drags in presenters from 6Music. Radio 4 seems to be trying to appeal to everyone, hence a lot of rock, pop, jazz and classical music items and programmes and comedy designed for, and arguably made by, sixth form and university students.

In some ways, this is radio promoting the kind of channel hopping that was naturally done with television. It reflects in part the move from dial to push button. In fact, I think there is some conceptual confusion. Radios in cars and vans were always push button so digital sets in the home might imply being "on the move" in that way.

[aeolium]

There was an earlier point on the thread about other stations not trying to appeal more broadly. That is patently not true.

Lat1, you may be referring to my msg 135, in which I said no other radio station tries to please everybody - that is a different point. No-one who wants to hear pop on the radio will turn to R5, which is a news/sport station. Classical or jazz music listeners will not turn to R1 to hear those types of music. And I don't think that there are a 'lot of' rock, pop, jazz and classical music items on R4, as you claim.

[BetweenTheStaves]

......

On the other hand, if a substantial number of regular listeners to R3 are thinking that quite a lot of the schedule does not suit them, then it is an issue for RW. ......

To be honest, listening to his comments on Feedback, he couldn't care less about us or our views. He reminds me of one of those proselytising born-again Christians. His way is the only way.

[french frank]

No-one who wants to hear pop on the radio will turn to R5, which is a news/sport station. Classical or jazz music listeners will not turn to R1 to hear those types of music.

Yet Radio 3 seems to be - grotesquely - not only targeting R4 listeners but R5L and local radio listeners too. I quote from the notorious Feedback programme:

"Well, we have actually and all we’ve done is exactly what we have been doing which is to give a 15-second look at the news either from the papers or a quick news headline. We share a lot of our listeners with Radio 4. What’s very important is just to give them when they come to Radio 3, to give them a sense if there something they would actually want to develop further on Radio 4 on 5Live on a BBC local radio service, then they can go elsewhere and get that news. "

And the one station that is never mentioned, the elephant in the room, is CFM. And the one set of listeners never mentioned are the dedicated R3 listeners, those who want R3 to be R3, distinct from the other stations, not some adjunct to other services which people pop over to listen to for a change - as long as it's not too taxing.

[Lateralthinking1]

And I don't think that there are a 'lot of' rock, pop, jazz and classical music items on R4, as you claim.

aeolium - Thank you for your reply. I take your point but must come back to you on this one. Just off the top of my head - no Google - I can think in the last one or two years of the following on Radio 4. There would be many more examples. It has been a music takeover. Much as I have enjoyed some of them, I don't want them to be there! -

Individual programmes about Kraftwerk, Ennio Morricone, Francoise Hardy and Womad.

Plus Oona King on the late 1980s rave scene, Peter Hook from New Order discussing the Hacienda with John Cooper Clarke, and Ricky Ross explaining the song Raintown and its importance to Glasgow.

Series have included Ken Clarke's jazz heroes, Paul Gambaccini's music quiz, Soul Music - celebrities discussing one song that means a lot to them, Inheritance Tracks with Fi Glover on a Saturday morning - last week featuring Bob Harris, Joan Armatrading's Favourite Choirs, Joan Armatrading's Favourite Guitarists and the perennial Desert Island Discs.

Among the items - Andy Kershaw on Today discussing today's music scene with Evan Davis and Eddie Mair on PM asking about, and playing an extract from, the Beethoven lost masterpiece.

[aeolium]

It has been a music takeover.

Well, just having a look at this week's schedules on R4 for example, I found:

- Musical Migrants, a 15-minute slot each weekday looking at different types of music including African music and the hardanger fiddle
- Tales from the Stave, an occasional series exploring classical music scores (30 mins)
- Profile of Stone Roses lead singer Ian Brown (15 mins)
- that old staple Desert Island Discs (45 mins)

so nearly 3 hours in the week. That's certainly going to reel in the musical punters

[Lateralthinking1]

I make it 4.25 hours taking account of the repeats plus Inheritance Tracks so nearly 4.5, excluding individual items on news programmes etc plus the music on Something Understood, which takes it near to 5. There will be more. Front Row featured Noel Gallagher ex of Oasis last week. Who will it be this? I would imagine they will have a story about the reformed Stone Roses.

Womans Hour has recently interviewed Wanda Jackson. Which country or soul singer will it be this week? Last week Cerys Matthews explained in a half an hour programme the appeal to an indie singer of fishing. The 10.30am slot on Saturday morning is now frequently a music slot. Admittedly, this weekend, it will be a programme about Rupert the Bear. Generally, there is also music for half an hour on one weekday morning.

On 26 September, Andrew Marr discussed the work of the 'Godfather' of new music Pierre Boulez. The French pianist Pierre-Laurent Aimard explained the joy of his compositions, which are in a state of permanent revolution. The writer Peter Conrad pitted Verdi against Wagner to ask whether it's possible to love both composers, or does taste, nationality and ideology still get in the way. This is by no means atypical. Then, I could say much about the sixth form comedy but I won't do now.

Very little of this would appeal to the traditional Radio 4 listener. In fact, to many these names would mean nothing. You could add up the times of the news bulletins, the phone-ins and the charts on Breakfast on 3. It would amount to little. RW often makes this point but that is not the point is it? It is about what is best suited to where.

Let's be clear about this. The reason why there is reluctance on the part of Radio 3 listeners to accept these facts is that they are scared stiff that Kraftwerk, Joan Armatrading and Noel Gallagher will end up on Radio 3 if they are not on Radio 4. It therefore suits them to downplay the cultural vandalism on Radio 4.

[aeolium]

Let's be clear about this. The reason why there is reluctance on the part of Radio 3 listeners to accept these facts is that they are scared stiff that Kraftwerk, Joan Armatrading and Noel Gallagher will end up on Radio 3 if they are not on Radio 4. It therefore suits them to downplay the cultural vandalism on Radio 4.

I'm sorry, Lat1 - putting your argument in bold text will not make it any more persuasive, to me at least.

Here is an extract of the R4 Programme Policy statement for 2010/2011:

"The remit of Radio 4 is to be a mixed-speech service, offering in-depth news and current affairs and a wide range of other speech output including drama, readings, comedy, factual and magazine programmes.....Beyond news, we will offer intellectually thrilling factual programmes embracing science, natural history, literature, music, art, history, religion and consumer affairs." (my emphasis)

Leaving aside the question of whether they are 'intellectually thrilling', it's clear that music is one of the areas to be covered within R4's speech programmes, and even those relatively few programmes where there is a music content remain predominantly speech programmes i.e. they are discussions about the music or the musicians. There is no subterfuge about smuggling music in - it's there in R4's remit.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Yet Radio 3 seems to be - grotesquely - not only targeting R4 listeners but R5L and local radio listeners too.

I wonder how long it will be before we have to endure a drumbeat accompaniment to the news.

Talking of CFM, I think they do a far better job of dumbing down than Radio 3, which is simply sickly and embarrassing.
The phone-in this morning - the worman from Whitley Bay wasn't stupid; in fact she spoke quite well. But I really could not see the point in it at all.

[DracoM]

Yet Radio 3 seems to be - grotesquely - not only targeting R4 listeners but R5L and local radio listeners too. I quote from the notorious Feedback programme:

"Well, we have actually and all we’ve done is exactly what we have been doing which is to give a 15-second look at the news either from the papers or a quick news headline. We share a lot of our listeners with Radio 4. What’s very important is just to give them when they come to Radio 3, to give them a sense if there something they would actually want to develop further on Radio 4 on 5Live on a BBC local radio service, then they can go elsewhere and get that news. "

And the one station that is never mentioned, the elephant in the room, is CFM. And the one set of listeners never mentioned are the dedicated R3 listeners, those who want R3 to be R3, distinct from the other stations, not some adjunct to other services which people pop over to listen to for a change - as long as it's not too taxing.

Hammer / nail / head / hit.

[antongould]

I wonder how long it will be before we have to endure a drumbeat accompaniment to the news.

Talking of CFM, I think they do a far better job of dumbing down than Radio 3, which is simply sickly and embarrassing.
The phone-in this morning - the worman from Whitley Bay wasn't stupid; in fact she spoke quite well. But I really could not see the point in it at all.

What made us mildly surprised that the lady wasn't stupid? Were you, seemingly, half expecting stupidity because of the Whitley Bay domicile or because they are a Breakfast listener/participant or possibly both? Quite by chance the first ever phone in chap was from Whitley Bay perhaps it's in the Resident's Association mission statement!

[french frank]

What made us mildly surprised that the lady wasn't stupid? Were you, seemingly, half expecting stupidity because of the Whitley Bay domicile or because they are a Breakfast listener/participant or possibly both? Quite by chance the first ever phone in chap was from Whitley Bay perhaps it's in the Resident's Association mission statement!

I think you've introduced the notion of '(mild) surprise'. EA's comment was that the 'phone-in moment' seemed pointless to him.

The controller's disingenuousness (putting it kindly) is in saying that there is an evident 'appetite' for listener interactivity. If you invite 100,000 or 150,000 listeners at a particular moment to text in or email in, some will. They have an appetite for it. But the vast majority won't. But if they don't text in or email in and say Fer-God's-Sake-Shut-Up their opinions effectively don't exist. (And if they do text/email in, they'll be ignored, I presume, as being off-message).

[Old Grumpy]

If you invite 100,000 or 150,000 listeners at a particular moment to text in or email in, some will. They have an appetite for it.

What I don't understand is how all these people on the move have time to text and email in - it would take me about 10 minutes to text a single message - and then it would all probably be in lower (or upper) case with numerous mistakes! I tend to miss the callers on your call as the local traffic news cuts in on the car radio at this time. Overall I think this is certainly one element of the "new" breakfast that could be quietly forgotten. Subjectively the number and length of references to texts and emails has diminished from a high when PT took over - but I may be wrong. And BTW, I am certainly not dissing Whitley Bay!!

[antongould]

But I didn't introduce the concept of stupidity or lack of stupidity. I can say in all honesty that it would never cross my feeble mind that someone who phoned into Radio 3 - even Breakfast - would be stupid.

[french frank]

But I didn't introduce the concept of stupidity or lack of stupidity. I can say in all honesty that it would never cross my feeble mind that someone who phoned into Radio 3 - even Breakfast - would be stupid.

EA knows better than I what he intended, but I took it the opposite way round: even if someone rang in to say something of stunning intelligence, it would still be a pointless feature if it did not contribute to the general listeners' appreciation of the music (since it is - or was - a music programme, rather than a chat show). People who have been used to listeners ringing in to get something off their chest might well not understand why others fail to see the point of it.