A Sincere Thank You

[Frances_iom]

Or, what they think there is a public for, and a public which it suits them to try to attract for reasons which somehow never get openly discussed.

apparently TV viewers to a dumbed down gardening show managed to get the old presenter and his intelligent and less celebrity driven show re-instated by the BBC so some public pressure does work - R3 has gone so far along the CFm path that I suspect it can't turn back until Wright has gone, by which time I suspect it will be too late.

[Suffolkcoastal]

I think the near total lack of imagination is one of R3's biggest faults at present. The current tendency to fall back into playing certain composers and certain works ad nauseam, classical collection now beginning to sound like an inferior version of CFMs Evening Concert, as what is sometimes played on CFM is now more interesting and CFMs evening concert tends to play complete works. Classical Collection has started to play chunks of works and this is even happenning on TTN occasionally now. Even shorter works are being chopped up, the other day intune just played the Prelude from the orchestral version of Vaughan Williams' Prelude & Fugue in C minor, for heaven's sake the complete work is only 10 minutes long! As long as RW is in charge things will only get steadily worse, the best Christmas present the BBC could offer R3 listeners is to remove RW and appoint a controller who actually respects (RW clearly doesn't that is obvious from the various interviews he has given) the R3 listeners, engages with them, is approachable, imaginative without risking losing the station's integrity, and gives the station its unique indentity & individuality back.

[doversoul1]

Suffolkcoastal
I agree: the lack of imagination. Have you noticed that there are only a very few threads on these boards that are actually about Radio3’s programmes? Is it because everything is fine? It can’t be. Is it a case that we find nothing to talk about? If it is, it is very worrying.

What sort of programmes do you think can be inspiring, other than the choice of music, which is of course the top priority?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Although I go along with the basic point regarding the lack of imagination in the running of Radio 3, there is the point that has to be faced. Many have pointed the blame at the current controller of the channel. Maybe it's justified, but it's hardly surprising, with such a relentless barrage of condemnation, that the Radio 3 Messageboard has been closed down. There are ways and means to get things changed, but constant sniping is not going to work. Constructive suggestions might.

[Frances_iom]

... There are ways and means to get things changed, but constant sniping is not going to work. Constructive suggestions might.

there were plenty of suggestions on the old board - please give one instance in which Wright has entered into any serious discussion about the direction he has taken R3 - I recall his appearance on Feedback when the presenter seemed extemely annoyed at his total lack of any need to engage with his audience.
Maybe FF has had private conversations (+ I trust a good lunch) but in the absence of wikileaks from the BH Kremlin I can only judge by his lack of any discussion re his decisions.

[Suffolkcoastal]

I think it is RW's attitude that has really irked many people, the sheer arrogance of the man is breathtaking. I made a number of suggestions on the R3 MB a few months back but didn't get any feedback from any source or other MB's, the latter did surprise me.

Some of these included:
1. Anniversary composers, a greater focus on the less known ones, after all the better known ones get plenty of exposure anyway at all times. Let's learn more about them composers such as Krommer, Holmboe, W Schuman, Cherubini have hardly had a look in. Withe the better known ones lets hear more of the lesser known works in these anniversary years. The coverage of Barber this year for example has been very slanted, four key works the Piano & Cello Concertos, Prayer of Kiekegaard and The Lovers haven't featured once!
2. Bring back the educational programmes, discovering music is OK but I can remember and have recorded interesting programmes on composers such as Moeran, Harris, Copland and the Russian Symphony. Some of these were excellent and contributed greatly to my appreciation of music.
3. Greater cooperation with networks from other countries, after all we have the occasional EBU broadcasts, live from the Met, and recordings of concerts on TTN. Lets expand that, have some live or (prerecorded from the day before) concerts from around the world and invite presenters and experts from other international networks to make and present programmes and join in with R3 programmes and concerts from the UK. We all know costs are tight at the moment but some sharing of programming and pooling resources and imagination could help stimulate listening and also possibly support some struggling ensembles.
4. Proper schedule planning, do we really need the same work played several times in one week?
5. GET RID OF THE STUPID CHARTS! and other ill planned copies of something that Classic FM actually does better.
6. Breakfast, no problem with shorter pieces and extracts here, but the current tendency to play 3 or 4 works by Mozart and Bach every morning and fall back on Hungarian and Slavonic Dances and the inevitable Debussy and/or Ravel along with inane chatter, endless trailers and silly texting invites smacks of cheap commercial radio. No harm with a little bit of introduction to each piece but keep it simple and informative if necessary.
7. More programmes on historical recordings, the history of recording and general informed discussion in this field.

These are just some random thoughts and I'm sure others could come up with some interesting ideas too.

[DracoM]

< More programmes on historical recordings, the history of recording and general informed discussion in this field. >

Which is why the old CD Masters was so important.

The BBC has an unrivalled access to archive concerts, recordings, and enough clout to wrest others from sundry archives. They hold the key to maintaining a scrutiny of continuity and even discontinuity of interpretations, playng styles, styles of singing, opera etc in ways that no other broadcasting organisation in the world can lay claim to.

CDM tapped into that huge resource and others. It contextualised, kept the new fresh, but it also shpowed the old as fgresh and innovative too. The BBC has a duty surely to the musical world in keeping alive that tradition and locating it in ways that point up the wonders of the present and sets them alongside the wonders of the past. CDM did exactly that. It is a mighty role, yet the BBC seems to have more or less completely abandoned that mighty duty in a harum-scarum chase and undignified scramble for only the new.

Rob Cowan is simply not a DJ, neither is Jonathan Swain. But both were revealed as sensitive and insightful broadcasters and educators under the CDM banner, and I deeply mourn the passing of not just the programme, but the concept of curatorship of the recorded legacy that went with it.

[Eudaimonia]

Suffolkcoastal: given that the old boards are gone, why not view this forum as a "fresh start" and put your constructive feedback in threads of their own? Every one of your points could be a discussion and debate in itself, and would certainly go a long way toward keeping this board focused on R3. There's a lot to think about, and I for one would like to "unpack" your ideas one at a time. Hiding the whole lot in a snarky complaint thread doesn't do it justice.

I recall his appearance on Feedback when the presenter seemed extremely annoyed at his total lack of any need to engage with his audience.

This simply isn't true. This summer I attended all the Proms concerts, and was on the front row more often than not-- almost every single day, Wright was out on the steps cheerfully greeting people, listening to them patiently with good humour. Observing from a distance, I'd say a good seven out of ten people buttonholing him were in sore need of being told to go to hell. But no matter how stupid and obnoxious his conversation partners were, I never saw him lose patience with anyone or cut them off. Not once, not even a little. He was unfailingly affable and polite. All the promenaders certainly had their say--I'm sure if you marched up to him with your sheet of complaints, he'd hear you out too.

And in case you were wondering, no, I never so much as squeaked a peep at him.

[Bax-of-Delights]

Indeed, while there were snipings from the message board sidelines there were plenty of interesting discussions and constructive criticisms of the nature of the R3 trajectory. That those arguments have been studiously ignored (apart from reinstating of Choral Evensong) AND the listening figures have remained static or decreased in some cases would leave one to believe that The Three Wise Monkeys are in control.
DracoM has more succinctly expressed my own views earlier on this thread. Closing down the R3 messageboard was never a matter of money saving, it was purely to shut us up. The trajectory into the CFM firmament continues apace with Breakfast and Classical Collection now melding into one 5 hour programme re-circulating old "favourites" unlikely to frighten the horses.

Edited: my post seems to have popped up out of sequence and I notice other posters have more eloquently expressed similar views to mine.

Eudaimonia: If, as you say, RW was buttonholed so often by Prommers (I don't think I would recognise him to even speak to him) one wonders what the nature of those conversations were and if they were indeed critical about the role of R3 why would it appear that he has taken no note of the feelings of the core R3 audience?

[Suffolkcoastal]

Not sure on which board to put my suggestions, probably Performance in the next few days thanks Eudaimonia.

Abour RW, of course RW has to behave like that at the Proms and I wouldn't have expected otherwise. R3 and RWs career are totally dependent on the Proms, if R3 loses that then it is finished. Your description of RW has reminded me however once again of a certain theatrical impresario of which I've had experience who managed a Theatre. The person in question behaved exactly as you described RW, there every night greeting the public and his staff in the most affable manner dealing with 'difficult' people, never showing the slightest sign of irritation etc. You couldn't imagine a more charming man. But behind the scenes I don't think you'd have believed it was the same person, arrogant and aggresive, sacking people as he felt like it, changing things at a whim whether they worked or not, rumours and suspicion flying around, but no one dared question or disagree with him they were just far too scared, I don't know how the staff coped with him. I just can't get this image out of my head when thinking of R3 these days. I sincerely hope it isn't as bad as that!

[doversoul1]

Suffolkcoastal
And ff, is there a way of setting up a dedicated board for discussions based on the points suggested by Suffolk? I know this forum IS for discussions about Radio3 but things tend to get lost amongst other topics and it is hard to follow one discussion.

Also you (ff) started a thread about Breakfast with several points but that again, did not quite develop, although this could have been just overshadowed by the excitement of the first few days.
.
As for RW at the Proms. Well, that shows he knows how to promote himself and HIS idea of Radio3. If only… Ah well. We’ve said it all so I shan’t clatter the board.

[Frances_iom]

The suggestions seem to come under a number of headings
(1) presentation - too much like commercial radio with the tinsel hiding the shoddy material being presented
(2) the move away from the older Reithian style of education and provision of the best, towards purely entertainment
(3) associated with (2) the narrowing in several ways of the material towards a safe middle choice that will not require too much concentration nor make potential audences worry they cannot handle it

Breakfast + the following programme indicate all these points as do the destruction of the evening concert.

Being charming to your punters is not the same as discussing the direction in which you are taking the channel - anyone who has worked in situations in which you have to provide a public face is aware of such individuals who appear charm itself to the customers but take no notice of them in the decisions made behind closed doors.

[doversoul1]

Suffolkcoastal, In the meantime, here are some of my thoughts:
1. Anniversary composers: It should be a good opportunity to introduce less well know composers. I think this would work better if these composers were put into musical context. For example, this week’s CoW Campra: I would have understood and appreciated his music better if his music had been played along with his Italian contemporaries and French composers who came before and after him.

2. Bring back the educational programmes: Not all programmes need to be as solidly educational as Discovering Music, but R3 has more than enough people who can talk about music in an organised and insightful way. Other than straightforward performance programmes, the ‘talks’ should be something meaningful. As you say SC, we don’t want DJs.

3. Greater cooperation with networks from other countries: When I brows through Youtube clips, I often ask myself ‘Why are we not hearing these performers over here?’ We seem to be missing a lot.

4. Proper schedule planning: this is slightly problematic, since people listen to R3 at different times and length. Also, it depends on one’s musical knowledge. There was a time even Goldberg Variations were ‘new’ to me. However, that is no excuse for not making an effort. This day and age, there must be a way to avoid over-repetitions per day or per week etc.

5. GET RID OF THE STUPID CHARTS: I have absolutely nothing to add to this. It’s worse than pointless.

6. Breakfast: I don’t mind short pieces and in some cases, bleeding bits may be just acceptable. However, I do not wish to hear other listeners’ private business and personal opinions. If Radio3 wishes to create some kind of interactive programme, it could set up one for that, say, an hour a week? Or even to keep the last half an hour of Breakfast for that. Then we can all happily turn it off.

7. More programmes on historical recordings: Radio3 could relax its concentration on young and upcoming performers. I can’t help suspecting from time to time that BBC has some kind of contract with record companies. This links with The Chart, too.

I am posting this without proofreading or editing. Please ignore any typos and grammar slips.

[french frank]

Suffolkcoastal
And ff, is there a way of setting up a dedicated board for discussions based on the points suggested by Suffolk? I know this forum IS for discussions about Radio3 but things tend to get lost amongst other topics and it is hard to follow one discussion.

Also you (ff) started a thread about Breakfast with several points but that again, did not quite develop, although this could have been just overshadowed by the excitement of the first few days.
.
As for RW at the Proms. Well, that shows he knows how to promote himself and HIS idea of Radio3. If only… Ah well. We’ve said it all so I shan’t clatter the board.

Yes, I was hoping the/my thread would be used for discussions such as this. However, these are on the Breakfast board itself. It would be a useful service for someone(?!) to collect the constructive views. If thought appropriate, I could move some posts here to the thread I started. But the problem is always keeping threads on topic!

The whole matter of what is the most efficient way (for users) of arranging discussions is one I'm thinking about. Perhaps Child Boards (so, Breakfast could have a child board for constructive suggestions as opposed to topical whinges and praise). On the other hand, thread titles can sometimes obscure the content (as perhaps here? ...). Titles which make it clear what the subject matter is may be better than creating a child board. I favour the simplest forum structure as is compatible with efficiency of navigating.

There's a pretty scathing attack on the programme in a letter to the Indy this morning. It highlights, for me, the kaleidoscope of listener views where we can thjoroughly agree with one point made by the listener, be rather uncertain about the next and disagree with the third. LibDEms have nothing on Radio 3 listeners

[sigolene euphemia]

Great idea to place into action french frank. Where's Eudamonia ?