Celebrity Choice - the latest erosion?

[french frank]

Anyway, adding further thoughts to the original subject , an analyst writes:

It seems to me that any significant link between the Third Programme and Radio 3 has now been broken. When the Third was launched, it wasn't the 'classical music' station, because the Home Service and the Light Programme broadcast classical music - the latter's successor, Radio 2 did so until quite lately when the plethora of pop music swamped the network and there was 'no room'/'no audience' for classical music there.

But when the Third began it was very emphatically aimed at a 'kind of listener' who it was felt was not being catered for, even by the existing classical programmes. Call it what you will: 'serious', 'critical', 'adventurous', 'curious', 'knowledgeable' - characterise it how you will. If the Proms back in the 1890s sought to 'create a new audience' for (classical) music, the Third was to cater for, develop and expand that audience. It was never intended to be for a 'general audience'.

When generic broadcasting came in in 1967 (much criticised as a concept at the time), the new Radio 3 became the home of classical music since Radio 4 was now 'speech' and Radio 2 was to be 'light music'. So we reached the point where the only place anyone could encounter classical music was on Radio 3, which was focused on the genre, not the type of listener. Anyone who had a casual interest or might be tempted to develop an interest became the 'target' listener.

So we are left with a few very longstanding programmes and traditions: Composer of the Week, the 'live' music concerts and recitals, Record Review, the "Hear and Now" strand - and among the newer programmes (now over 20 years old), perhaps Through the Night. Everything else is marketed for new or casual listeners (or other types of music - which for some reason do not have 'beginners' programmes'). Does a Classic FM audience develop into a knowledgeable, 'discriminating' audience? If not, why should Radio 3's new listeners? And where next for Radio 3?

[Ein Heldenleben]

I’m hoping that the celebrity picks show is only a temporary response to the current situation. Because of Covid there is a dearth of live concerts to relay and , depending on the rights situation, repeating some recorded concerts can be prohibitively expensive or indeed impossible. Because the BBC has so many orchestras and given that it doesn’t make economic sense not to use them I think the live concerts will be back. I also think the Proms will return albeit with a 1,000 max capacity .....

[french frank]

I’m hoping that the celebrity picks show is only a temporary response to the current situation.

It seems to be. So far I can see no repeat week. But it's the marketing aspect of 'Celebrity Choice'. The regular afternoon concerts can manage to put together 'proper' formats, so in fact it's the listeners who look to that kind of concert - 'live' or recorded - who are losing out, again. I hope very much the idea will be kicked into touch. But there is a tide that needs to be turned back, not merely halted. In my view

[cloughie]

I’m hoping that the celebrity picks show is only a temporary response to the current situation. Because of Covid there is a dearth of live concerts to relay and , depending on the rights situation, repeating some recorded concerts can be prohibitively expensive or indeed impossible. Because the BBC has so many orchestras and given that it doesn’t make economic sense not to use them I think the live concerts will be back. I also think the Proms will return albeit with a 1,000 max capacity .....

Although the programmes do not venture into the unknown very much they are not as bad as I feared they might be and maybe full works prevail! However the celeb element invading core R3 territory does not bode well!

ff - you beat me to it with similar thoughts in #63.

[Ein Heldenleben]

It seems to be. So far I can see no repeat week. But it's the marketing aspect of 'Celebrity Choice'. The regular afternoon concerts can manage to put together 'proper' formats, so in fact it's the listeners who look to that kind of concert - 'live' or recorded - who are losing out, again. I hope very much the idea will be kicked into touch. But there is a tide that needs to be turned back, not merely halted. In my view

I agree but I fear we are Canutes in this ( though he was trying to prove a difference point - this tide can be turned ! ).

[kernelbogey]

It seems to me that any significant link between the Third Programme and Radio 3 has now been broken. When the Third was launched, it wasn't the 'classical music' station.... it was very emphatically aimed at a 'kind of listener' .... 'serious', 'critical', 'adventurous', 'curious', 'knowledgeable' - characterise it how you will....

I think this is important - I've filleted your post, partly to remove the musical bones - because programmes like The Brains Trust, and, later, IIRC avant-garde theatre, Talking About Music and the like were aimed at that audience. There has been some blurring, it seems to me, with Radio 4 recently (with a series about music* I can't now recall); and programmes such as In Our Time might once have been considered Third Programme material.

You delicately avoided (I assume ) any expression like 'intellectual' - but I don't mind characterising the Third Programme in that way, as it would not have been a matter of shame in the late 50s/early 60s: certainly my family looked at it that way (and you had to be grimly focused on that position to iisten through the evening static on medium wave in West Cornwall!).

'Serious', 'critical', 'adventurous', 'curious' and 'knowledgeable' listeners, and any surviving inellectuals, may and surely will have an appetite beyond Palestrina and Panufnik.

* Edit: Beethoven?

[french frank]

Although the programmes do not venture into the unknown very much they are not as bad as I feared they might be and maybe full works prevail!

It's not just a matter of 'full works'. They usually do play Debussy's La Mer in full. It's the apparent iron strategy that dictates that a full symphony, concerto, string quartet etc should rarely be allowed to infiltrate any programme that isn't a full concert, live or recorded. There was a time when 3 hours of Essential Classics 'boasted' [sic] one full-length work, played in full, but no longer. It's the main reason why I don't bother with R3 now - because so many programmes have become [CD-based] 'sequences': a succession of shorter pieces of varied character. A CD that consists of a couple of string quartets, probably by the same composer, makes much more satisfying listening - for me. That's why I was stressing the number of hours of airtime that these five celebrity concerts will take up - with short works predominating every evening.

[ardcarp]

There has been some blurring, it seems to me, with Radio 4 recently (with a series about music I can't now recall); and programmes such as In Our Time might once have been considered Third Programme material.

Indeed, programmes such as Tales from the Stave might be thought of as having a home on R3. Not so sure about In Our Time. OK it might be thought of as an 'intellectuals' programme, but Bragg and Co seem to have a strong aversion to anything musical. Given that the programme is supposed to be about our history, science and culture (including The Arts) there are very few (one can check back and see over the years) which have dealt with composers or their music. Correct me if I am wrong. I have contacted In Our Time a couple of times about its shortcoming in this matter...but have received no reply.

[french frank]

You delicately avoided (I assume ) any expression like 'intellectual' -

I didn't think of that one!

You might also - I hesitate, in case it's misunderstood - say 'educated'. Because I remember when FoR3 first started, how many people wrote in with their stories about their 'musical education'. Many said they were 'working class grammar school' [boys - usually]. And you thnk of the days of WEA. Yes, 'working-class grammar school boys' were privileged, just as we think of Old Etonians as having been privileged. But there was still a compulsion, a thirst to learn that was necessary. That seems to have become rarer in an Age of Entertainment..

[Belgrove]

R3 has painted itself into a corner through its remit having become so narrow - it is vulnerable to fashion, which has swung away from regarding classical music of cultural importance. When I started listening to the station in the late 70’s it was far more eclectic with, for example, weekly discussions on scientific issues chaired by John Maddox. There is nothing of this calibre on R3 now, nor on R4 where science is treated in a magazine format or is personality driven. Free Thinking somehow does not cut the mustard, even though it should do, on paper at least. It could be the presenters used that are the fault (Rana Mitta being the honourable exception). R3’s plays have declined in importance, through being scheduled at inappropriate times and, sadly, not being of the quality they once were (the rot set in about 15 years ago). I still enjoy the jazz output (which has nevertheless become less interesting), and Words and Music for its eclecticism. But as a station that has any influence on my learning or hearing anything new, it is fading to dark.

[Ein Heldenleben]

R3 has painted itself into a corner through its remit having become so narrow - it is vulnerable to fashion, which has swung away from regarding classical music of cultural importance. When I started listening to the station in the late 70’s it was far more eclectic with, for example, weekly discussions on scientific issues chaired by John Maddox. There is nothing of this calibre on R3 now, nor on R4 where science is treated in a magazine format or is personality driven. Free Thinking somehow does not cut the mustard, even though it should do, on paper at least. It could be the presenters used that are the fault (Rana Mitta being the honourable exception). R3’s plays have declined in importance, through being scheduled at inappropriate times and, sadly, not being of the quality they once were (the rot set in about 15 years ago). I still enjoy the jazz output (which has nevertheless become less interesting), and Words and Music for its eclecticism. But as a station that has any influence on my learning or hearing anything new, it is fading to dark.

Yes - the Third Programme and its weekly write up in the Listener was of a perceptibly higher intellectual plane . Are there really any world class thinkers in the New Generation Thinkers stable ? I think this reflects a general decline in the status and quality of public intellectual life though as they have started to become more and more inward -looking through obsession with culture, identity , structuralism, post structuralism etc. Meanwhile the scientists and tech innovators are running the world and getting nothing like the critical examination they need.

[Nick Armstrong]

I’m hoping that the celebrity picks show is only a temporary response to the current situation. Because of Covid there is a dearth of live concerts to relay

That was my thought, coupled with agents of celebs with a dearth of bookings trying to get their acts a slot or two.... Hence the air of desperation about the solution, which one hopes will be VERY temporary

[cloughie]

It's not just a matter of 'full works'. They usually do play Debussy's La Mer in full. It's the apparent iron strategy that dictates that a full symphony, concerto, string quartet etc should rarely be allowed to infiltrate any programme that isn't a full concert, live or recorded. There was a time when 3 hours of Essential Classics 'boasted' [sic] one full-length work, played in full, but no longer. It's the main reason why I don't bother with R3 now - because so many programmes have become [CD-based] 'sequences': a succession of shorter pieces of varied character. A CD that consists of a couple of string quartets, probably by the same composer, makes much more satisfying listening - for me. That's why I was stressing the number of hours of airtime that these five celebrity concerts will take up - with short works predominating every evening.

Yes indeed - at home I usually precede it with ‘Lapres-midi’ as a starter for a fuller Debussy experience!

[french frank]

Are there really any world class thinkers in the New Generation Thinkers stable ?

I think there's something entirely creditable about bringing on 'new talent' - including the New Generation Artists. But it is again, planting the seed corn for the future, rather than catering for an audience already after some real intellectual heavy stuff. That might be Radio 4's province now, rather than Radio 3's, but from what I'm hearing you don't get it there either.

[Ein Heldenleben]

That was my thought, coupled with agents of celebs with a dearth of bookings trying to get their acts a slot or two.... Hence the air of desperation about the solution, which one hopes will be VERY temporary

The other problem is that staging a full scale orchestral work is very difficult. I honestly think things will get better and the UK ( ok to be honest London ) will regain its status as the world’s premier classical music venue ( at least in terms of quantity and variety ) and , big hope, R3 will reflect that ( work permits permitting) .