Tearjerker, Downtown Symphony, Piano Flow, Happy Harmonies and other Saturday padding

[Ein Heldenleben]

I read that in 1933 Fould's complained to Adrian Boult that only his light music was ever aired on the BBC - his serious output didn't get a look-in. By the 1960s his shade would probably have settled for an airing of some of the light stuff.

His World Requiem was , at one stage , very popular wasn’t it? Now it’s hardly ever performed . Gone the way of Hiawatha . I suppose unlike the latter it’s too difficult for amateur performance.

[french frank]

As it's a module, I imagine that it is being taken only be students who are interested in it (or more interested in rap than, say, fugue). Investigating it from a socio-political viewpoint is probably the main thrust of the course. Musicology is a broad church!

My niece chose to do a module on 'opera' - that turned out to be opera from a political standpoint. Since graduating she has shown no interest in opera from the musical or performance aspect.

[underthecountertenor]

Maybe - but if Breakfast, Essential Classics, Tearjerker, Night Tracks, Downtime Symphony, Classical Fix and This Classical Life (to name but seven) are Radio 3's 'classical music' ? What about the classical music lovers who find this all too bland (and uninformative) because they aren't the target audience. Classic FM has a better claim to put 'classical music at the heart' of their output.

I'm sorry, ff, but I have to take issue with you again on this one. The briefest of glances at Classic FM's schedules is enough to demonstrate that this is simply not the case. It wears its blandness on its sleeve. 'Smooth Classics with Myleene Klass'. 'Smooth Classics at Seven with John Brunning'. 'Smooth Classics with Margherita Taylor.' All within just over 24 hours.

The weekday breakfast show features 'The Early Toast - raising a cuppa in someone's honour' and 'The Home School Run - if you'd like a mention for your little ones (or maybe for their teacher), do get in touch with Tim' - the sort of thing to which Petroc Trelawny and even Georgia Mann never sink. As far as I can see no menu is provided of the music played even after the programme has aired, so there is no possibility of looking to see whether there was anything worthwhile to listen to ex post facto (which I know is something you say you don't feel the urge to do, but at least the resource is there on R3).

Their 9 to noon slot is blatantly personality-driven, hosted as it is by Alexander Armstrong (who I'm told recently referred to the Choir of Westminster Abbey as 'a kind of boy band'). Again, no schedule of music provided. Between 12 and 2, when Radio 3 has Composer of the Week and a lunchtime concert (live whenever possible), they have 2 hours of listeners' requests. Then there's two hours of the (unspecified) 'very best classical music' when Radio 3 is broadcasting recordings of concerts (all billed in Radio Times). Then a drive-time show which doesn't appear to distinguish itself from any of the other programmes and certainly has no live studio music advertised (unlike In Tune). Smooth Classics, then 'The Classic FM Concert with John Suchet,' again self-evidently personality-led, and in fact not in any meaningful sense a concert, just more recordings. I note that the music in Tuesday's 2 hour programme is trumpeted as having one thing in common: 'it is all written in the key commonly associated with happiness and simplicity: C major.' Bland, anyone?

In the late slot, when Radio 3 offers spoken word and a more diverse mix of music, Classic FM's answer is more 'Smooth Classics'. And then where Radio 3 has the treasure trove of Through the Night, with a detailed schedule available in advance, Classic FM invites you to 'ease into the day' (from 1 am!!) with 'the world's most relaxing classical music.'

With the exception of the recent introduction of the admittedly dreadful (from what I've heard) Tearjerker and Downtime Symphony (a total of 2 hours between 5 and 7 am on one day, albeit taking out two hours of TTN), it seems to me that Radio 3 surpasses Classic FM as a classical music channel at every turn.

[underthecountertenor]

His World Requiem was , at one stage , very popular wasn’t it? Now it’s hardly ever performed . Gone the way of Hiawatha . I suppose unlike the latter it’s too difficult for amateur performance.

Broadcast live from the RAH on Armistice Day in 2007, with (very good) amateur choral forces, and available on Chandos. I'd bet a small sum that no one's done it since.

[Frances_iom]

Rap can be appallingly sexist, materialist and stereotyped, (just look at the various MTV-style channels now - so set in its clichéd ways...Snoop Dogg advertising Just Eat...) but it has also been a thriving fulcrum of invention and innovation in the BLM voices -..

Some excellent music was written in the Jewish 'showcase' ghettos under the Nazis but the former can in no way excuse the later - as I said a community that tolerated and in the case of the CD I heard glorified the violence has a lot to explain.

[french frank]

I'm sorry, ff, but I have to take issue with you again on this one. The briefest of glances at Classic FM's schedules is enough to demonstrate that this is simply not the case. It wears its blandness on its sleeve. 'Smooth Classics with Myleene Klass'. 'Smooth Classics at Seven with John Brunning'. 'Smooth Classics with Margherita Taylor.' All within just over 24 hours.

I didn't say Classic FM was better. But if all R3's 'shows' are classical music, so are CFM's. Neither is solid enough for me .

To my ears, R3 is also 'personality driven'. But if you don't agree, I'd suggest you either a) don't think they're as bad as CFM or b) just happen to like some or all of the personalities.

~As people say about their Twitter accounts: "All opinions my own." ~

[jayne lee wilson]

Some excellent music was written in the Jewish 'showcase' ghettos under the Nazis but the former can in no way excuse the later - as I said a community that tolerated and in the case of the CD I heard glorified the violence has a lot to explain.

But there is no neat "community" here, anymore than BLM is some narrowly circumscribed concept (Often misrepresented as such) - it is a constellation of global voices, feelings, protests.
The musical creations of Massive Attack or Portishead are from a different UK rap and musical culture to the starrier manifestations of Kanye West, Snoop Dogg, or the poppier versions from such as Nikki Minaj....not to mention the glossier output of Stormzy or Stefflon Don... all too various to easily brand, characterise, let alone attempt to blame for the sins of others - which I think is a bizarre misconception, aesthetically and otherwise.

London-based grime and garage are different again; it speaks to the culture it comes from, then reaches out in protest and celebration.
Rap, Hip-Hop and all its subsequent derivatives and reinventions constitutes a very diverse musical tradition with too many styles and outstanding performers to mention, some of whose lyrics are very striking poetry.......

[AuntDaisy]

I'm sorry, ff, but I have to take issue with you again on this one. The briefest of glances at Classic FM's schedules is enough to demonstrate that this is simply not the case. It wears its blandness on its sleeve. 'Smooth Classics with Myleene Klass'. 'Smooth Classics at Seven with John Brunning'. 'Smooth Classics with Margherita Taylor.' All within just over 24 hours.

The only part of Classic FM I occasionally listened to was Catherine Bott - I miss her on the Early Music Show. So I don't disagree that there's no comparison to Radio 3 at its best - BUT that best continues to happen less frequently and some of the replacements are not "classical" music.
So, I think French Frank is right that "Classic FM has a better claim to put 'classical music at the heart' of their output."

The worst of Radio 3's output seems to be overly-chatty / tedious / teenage presenters gabbling away or programmes I wouldn't touch with a barge-pole, e.g. Terjerker.
Through the Night was a refuge from this, but even it is under attack! Apologies, rant over.

[antongould]

I didn't say Classic FM was better. But if all R3's 'shows' are classical music, so are CFM's. Neither is solid enough for me .

To my ears, R3 is also 'personality driven'. But if you don't agree, I'd suggest you either a) don't think they're as bad as CFM or b) just happen to like some or all of the personalities.

~As people say about their Twitter accounts: "All opinions my own." ~

What do you mean by personality driven ...... ????

[underthecountertenor]

I didn't say Classic FM was better. But if all R3's 'shows' are classical music, so are CFM's. Neither is solid enough for me .

To my ears, R3 is also 'personality driven'. But if you don't agree, I'd suggest you either a) don't think they're as bad as CFM or b) just happen to like some or all of the personalities.

~As people say about their Twitter accounts: "All opinions my own." ~

You did say that "Classic FM has a better claim to put 'classical music at the heart' of their output." It's with that that I take issue. It's just possible that Classic FM plays more minutes of 'classical music' (depending on how you define it) per week than Radio 3, which has other forms of music as well as spoken word within its remit. I don't have the statistics on that. But point the criticisms you level at R3's presentation of classical music at certain points of the day (mornings, drive-time) apply to Classic FM and then some. Thus if Radio 3 can be faulted for not posting its schedule of music in advance for certain programmes, then how much worse is it that Classic FM doesn't provide a schedule even afterwards? I can look at yesterday's Radio 3 Breakfast listings and decide whether I'd like to dip in to it to listen to a particular piece of music, or indeed to listen to the whole thing if the menu as a whole appeals. Whereas I have no way of knowing what was on Classic FM's breakfast programme (although I'd wager that the range of fare was far more limited and safer than R3's).

By 'personality-driven' I mean 'celebrity-driven' (hence Armstrong, Aled Jones, Suchet, Moira Stuart, David Mellor, Klass, Titchmarsh). An obvious marker that Classic FM is more personality-driven, in that sense, than R3 is that the names of these people are included in the programme titles. That's clearly done for a reason. In the case of Alexander Armstrong, for example, it's because he's a well-known TV personality (from a comedy show and a quiz show). Whatever you may think of Suzy Klein and Ian Skelly on the programme which is in direct competition with Armstrong's, they are not there because they are personalities in that sense. I have some issues with the style of presentation of each of them, but neither has been chosen to present Essential Classics because of any extraneous celebrity. (And neither, thank goodness, has released a recording of their amateur singing which their radio station has gone on to promote ad nauseam). Of the regular presenters on Radio 3, only Katie Derham (perhaps not coincidentally my least favourite of the regulars) arguably falls into the 'extraneous celebrity' category. And even her name isn't elevated into the title of the programme she presents.

I therefore disagree with your suggestion as to why I disagree with you about R3 being 'personality driven'.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Broadcast live from the RAH on Armistice Day in 2007, with (very good) amateur choral forces, and available on Chandos. I'd bet a small sum that no one's done it since.

I remember that performance - there was a huge amount of hype around it ( by classical music standards that is ) . I enjoyed but since then it’s sunk without trace a bit ?

[underthecountertenor]

What do you mean by personality driven ...... ????

Sorry, anton: in fairness to ff, she was quoting me. I have now explained what I meant by 'personality driven,' and why I don't think it applies to Radio 3.

[Ein Heldenleben]

But there is no neat "community" here, anymore than BLM is some narrowly circumscribed concept (Often misrepresented as such) - it is a constellation of global voices, feelings, protests.
The musical creations of Massive Attack or Portishead are from a different UK rap and musical culture to the starrier manifestations of Kanye West, Snoop Dogg, or the poppier versions from such as Nikki Minaj....not to mention the glossier output of Stormzy or Stefflon Don... all too various to easily brand, characterise, let alone attempt to blame for the sins of others - which I think is a bizarre misconception, aesthetically and otherwise.

London-based grime and garage are different again; it speaks to the culture it comes from, then reaches out in protest and celebration.
Rap, Hip-Hop and all its subsequent derivatives and reinventions constitutes a very diverse musical tradition with too many styles and outstanding performers to mention, some of whose lyrics are very striking poetry.......

Although I find the musical side of much urban music monotonous the words are a different matter . Some of Dizzie Rascals lyrics are very witty - he’s a sort of Urban Noel Coward and he was a breath of fresh air in the tediumfest that was Glastonbury a couple of years ago . I agree about the concerns re violence and sexism obvs. But there’s more to it than just that.

[underthecountertenor]

The only part of Classic FM I occasionally listened to was Catherine Bott - I miss her on the Early Music Show. So I don't disagree that there's no comparison to Radio 3 at its best - BUT that best continues to happen less frequently and some of the replacements are not "classical" music.
So, I think French Frank is right that "Classic FM has a better claim to put 'classical music at the heart' of their output."

The worst of Radio 3's output seems to be overly-chatty / tedious / teenage presenters gabbling away or programmes I wouldn't touch with a barge-pole, e.g. Terjerker.
Through the Night was a refuge from this, but even it is under attack! Apologies, rant over.

How can you endorse that claim when, as you say, the only part of Classic FM you even occasionally listened to was Catherine Bott?

[Ein Heldenleben]

The only part of Classic FM I occasionally listened to was Catherine Bott - I miss her on the Early Music Show. So I don't disagree that there's no comparison to Radio 3 at its best - BUT that best continues to happen less frequently and some of the replacements are not "classical" music.
So, I think French Frank is right that "Classic FM has a better claim to put 'classical music at the heart' of their output."

The worst of Radio 3's output seems to be overly-chatty / tedious / teenage presenters gabbling away or programmes I wouldn't touch with a barge-pole, e.g. Terjerker.
Through the Night was a refuge from this, but even it is under attack! Apologies, rant over.

I listen to Classic FM from time to time on a Sunday evening. The real problem with it, part form the appalling compression are the adverts . At the moment there are so many don’t go out Covid ads which strikes me as massive mis-marketing as the largely over 70’s upmarket demo aren’t going to hit the pubs with or without a vaccine