Radio 3 Programming - Problems & Solutions

[Pulcinella]

On each weekday there is about 5 hours of concert programming - and also a fair bit at weekends. Is there nothing that you find of interest in these concert programmes? My musical interests largely fall outside much of the Classical/Romantic repertoire that is frequently found in concerts. However, I always find several concerts, or at least works within those concerts, of interest every week.

But consider how much more interesting (though perhaps not to you) the morning schedule was 'in the past', from the details given at the end of each of ferney's Today's the Day. That's what many of us miss.

[sgjames]

But consider how much more interesting (though perhaps not to you) the morning schedule was 'in the past', from the details given at the end of each of ferney's Today's the Day. That's what many of us miss.

I'm certainly not trying to suggest that everything on R3 as it stands is wonderful, but I think that there is great deal that is of a very high standard. I was looking at some of the older R3 listings on Genome the other day and the morning schedules have certainly changed a lot, and I would have to concede for the worst.
When looking at the R3 Genome listings, I came across a programme called 'Sacred and Profane', presented by Paul Guinery, which was broadcast on sunday mornings. Looking back I think it played a significant part in shaping some of the musical tastes I have now. It is a far cry from Breakfast presented by Elizabeth Alker.

[DracoM]

A few observations on R3’s dilemmas.

1. The R3 core repertoire changes far, far less and much, much more slowly, unlike Rs1,2, 6, and commercial stations and online streaming where changes to the core ‘offerings’ [yuk] are far more rapid, and driven by an industry’s needs to be ultra-sensitive to the constant movement, and relentless and often desperate search for / keeping up with the largely youth-catching material.

2. R3 material is mostly grounded in the past, the distant past, and the VERY distant past. Of its nature, such material is repeated in new recordings and performances of core standard works. Concerts are frequently arranged about such core favourites for the very obvious reason that if they aren’t, there are fewer bums on seats - spelling financial disaster for both ensembles performing and radio stations eavesdropping.

3. BUT R3 management seems to have decided to format the R3 day as if it was R2: so the presenters are high-profiled, pieces of music rarely longer than eight or nine minutes at a time are staple, air time is restlessly laced with trails, social media interactions, in-studio guests with DID style structures.

4. All of which flies in the face of the hard and utterly inescapable fact that much of the core repertoire of R3 is LONG, is made up of interlinked movements / sections / developments, music that has deep and significant variety of philosophical content / messages / ideas / references, as well as exuberant, outrageous and joyous content.

5. If you present such complex material like a R2 ‘show’, the music is the first casualty, and the listenership the second.

6. R3 has incrementally over the last decade implicitly abandoned form its schedules [yes, so all the ‘young’ are only online blah blah blah, are they?] the notion that the involvement of young people has to be very, very carefully encouraged and managed. If you do not so manage, then many young tasters - necessarily moving from ignorance to tasting to immersion and indulgence - are dumped in the deep end and left to cope as they may. It is / can be intimidating, and the frightened splash for the exit.

7. Hence, paradoxically, the very way R3 structures its daytime listening from 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. actually works AGAINST introducing the young to new forms of music. Why? Because between those times., my guess is that very, very few ‘young’ listeners are listening / can listen for any length of time – school, college, life etc. So, if there is any truth in that supposition, then the core repertoire could be paraded in those hours far more regularly to satisfy those who may have a longer history in listening.

8. ‘In tune’ is IMO a gabbling, blurring disaster. BUT, and I know this is going to hurt some, the Mixtapes recipes between that and the evening concert / Words and Music segments are a VG idea: and actually TNT is as well – in fact I’d guess that a lot of people use it online as the soundtrack to their day.

9. Generally speaking, I’d suggest that R3’s COTW, plus EVENINGS are pretty good: biogs, contextualising, plus live music, full works, decent talk, jazz, world music and TNT.

10. The serious problem is the programming of ‘new music’, much of which can be demanding, seriously intimidating, inhabits very different worlds. It is worthwhile, yes, of course, indeed, but……….how do you take the young, the nervous into such worlds? As R3 audience ages, so its appetite for such repertoires fades. BUT if you want to attract new listeners who will be brave, stay with it and go with it, how do you START to encourage and attract? IMO, R3 has incrementally shied away from this. Maybe, there IS no way you can encourage it ON AIR.

11. Warning hobbyhorse about to be released: Getting kids to react and be in the room to hear such challenging stuff live in front of them is a totally different experience. The immediate and often far more physical impact of ANY music live before children of any age is exciting and deserves care and invention to effect. And MONEY, and a greater willingness of big beasts like the BBC to fund far more in-the-room interaction between players / composers and children.

[antongould]

But consider how much more interesting (though perhaps not to you) the morning schedule was 'in the past', from the details given at the end of each of ferney's Today's the Day. That's what many of us miss.

But can you honestly say pulcers that if the Breakfast fare of old was magically reinstated you would listen every morning without fail .......

[Pulcinella]

8. ‘In tune’ is IMO a gabbling, blurring disaster. BUT, and I know this is going to hurt some, the Mixtapes recipes between that and the evening concert / Words and Music segments are a VG idea: and actually TNT is as well – in fact I’d guess that a lot of people use it online as the soundtrack to their day.

What hurt me (or my ears) was the lack of any break between pieces in unrelated keys!

I don't know if this has changed.
But, to be fair, I much prefer a Mixtape-type style, and it gave them the ability and spontaneity to give a Notre-Dame-themed programme after the recent fire.
Who at the BBC thinks people need to be talked to as they listen on their way home from work (if that's who In Tune is aimed at) escapes me.

[Pulcinella]

But can you honestly say pulcers that if the Breakfast fare of old was magically reinstated you would listen every morning without fail .......

I'd certainly give it a go, which is what I'm NOT doing at present.

I remember waking up to the R3 'theme' (no, I'm not asking for it to be reinstated), especially when it was that wonderful section from RVW's Job.
Just as I didn't want to be 'talked at' in the evening on my way home from work, I don't want to be 'talked at' in the morning either.
I had switched to R4 but gave up on that the day after the referendum.
I prefer silence now (I tried Scala just before it launched and can't imagine that it has improved) as I scan through the morning paper on my iPad.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The secretive schedule is another factor. Instead of publishing the day’s music in Radio Times, the music being played is mostly odds and sods of snippets, which would make it all but impossible to list, with so little space now allocated to each radio station.

I used to buy RT every week, highlight the programmes/works I wanted to hear. There’s little point now.

[french frank]

8. ‘In tune’ is IMO a gabbling, blurring disaster. BUT, and I know this is going to hurt some, the Mixtapes recipes between that and the evening concert / Words and Music segments are a VG idea: and actually TNT is as well – in fact I’d guess that a lot of people use it online as the soundtrack to their day.

In saying it is 'a very good idea', do you mean you like them or do you have any evidence beyond 'I'd guess' that they are popular? If so, with whom? Existing listeners or do they, as I gather is intended, draw in new listeners for whom 'mixtapes' are a regular feature of their listening?

The point about the BBC having a fixed idea of what Radio 3 is for would have meant that changes could occur in line with changing times but still also in line with the basic raison d'être. No, one would not necessarily like to go back to how things were 50 years ago but to embrace changes that might have been introduced had Radio 3 not decided that 'what Radio 3 was for' was getting more listeners and engineering a different audience profile. That would be somewhat similar to Radio Cymru or Radio nan Gàidheal having special programmes for Muslims living in the Highlands or landowning English aristocrats.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

But can you honestly say pulcers that if the Breakfast fare of old was magically reinstated you would listen every morning without fail .......

That's a good question. I like to believe that I would - certainly, when I've been posting the morning schedules from the Genome, I have been thinking how excellent the range and selection is, and with essential-only presentation between the works. It appeals to me much, much more than what's been on offer for the last decade or so; and I like to think that not only would I listen much more frequently (and probably every day) but that it would encourage me to get up earlier than I do these days.

But you may be right: it may be that the different listening habits I've adopted in order to avoid R3 these days (chosing a CD of works I don't know very well and playing it over several days until I do know them "very well") have become so enjoyable that I might not bother - I don't really know. Be nice if what I wanted was on offer so that I could find out - and it'd save me the effort of sorting out which CD I want to choose for the week.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

But can you honestly say pulcers that if the Breakfast fare of old was magically reinstated you would listen every morning without fail .......

One can never say “without fail”, but I’d almost certainly listen on a regular and frequent basis.

[Serial_Apologist]

That's a good question. I like to believe that I would - certainly, when I've been posting the morning schedules from the Genome, I have been thinking how excellent the range and selection is, and with essential-only presentation between the works. It appeals to me much, much more than what's been on offer for the last decade or so; and I like to think that not only would I listen much more frequently (and probably every day) but that it would encourage me to get up earlier than I do these days.

But you may be right: it may be that the different listening habits I've adopted in order to avoid R3 these days (chosing a CD of works I don't know very well and playing it over several days until I do know them "very well") have become so enjoyable that I might not bother - I don't really know. Be nice if what I wanted was on offer so that I could find out - and it'd save me the effort of sorting out which CD I want to choose for the week.

In my case the answer would be a definite "yes, I would listen", as regularly as possible. Radio 3, "as she once was", informed my broad-ranging and sophisticated musical tastes; I would like to think it could, once again, do likewise for present and future generations.

[LMcD]

I like to make musical discoveries, but whereas Radio 3 used to be my main source for these, most of them now come courtesy of this Forum, from YouTube and from visits to charity shops.
I would listen for longer in the mornings if Essential Classics offered more nourishing fare - after all, I did when its predecessor did!
The extract from 'Job' used to mark the start of my listening day - now it's an hour or so of 'Today' followed by some, but not all, of the last 2 hours or so of 'Breakfast'.

[teamsaint]

I like to make musical discoveries, but whereas Radio 3 used to be my main source for these, most of them now come courtesy of this Forum, from YouTube and from visits to charity shops.
I would listen for longer in the mornings if Essential Classics offered more nourishing fare - after all, I did when its predecessor did!
The extract from 'Job' used to mark the start of my listening day - now it's an hour or so of 'Today' followed by some, but not all, of the last 2 hours or so of 'Breakfast'.

thats just showing off.


Nobody can take an hour of that.

Anyway, back to the thread, It seems to me that a n awful lot of us ( I’m speaking for myself here really and probably “projecting”. ) don’t mind hearing music that we don’t like, but the issue is listening to linear radio without the apparent potential for new discovery of whatever kind.

[MrGongGong]

I heard Walton's viola concerto on R2 last week.... it was part of an interview with Damon Albarn
just saying as some like to think that there is a one way valve in radio

(oh and I discovered The Orb by listening to R3)

[doversoul1]

I like to make musical discoveries, but whereas Radio 3 used to be my main source for these, most of them now come courtesy of this Forum, from YouTube and from visits to charity shops.
I would listen for longer in the mornings if Essential Classics offered more nourishing fare - after all, I did when its predecessor did!
The extract from 'Job' used to mark the start of my listening day - now it's an hour or so of 'Today' followed by some, but not all, of the last 2 hours or so of 'Breakfast'.

This is the thought that makes me slightly hesitate to join the chorus: do you not think that perhaps it is you/us who have moved on and Radio 3 is still a source of discovery to many people? Coming late to serious classical music listening, I still remember not so long ago almost everything I heard on R3 was a discovery but now it is mostly Through the Night I look for something less familiar.

All the same, I don’t remember hearing works in bits. On one programme I remember very well, a new recording of The Goldberg Variations was to be played and the announcer said ‘since the work lasts longer than the programme, it will be played over two programmes (to the effect)’. Also, whilst I can’t remember the source but in the 1970s, Radio 3 was one of the driving forces of the early music movement. All sounds like a distant dream.