Hancock vs Ravel

[LezLee]

An improv on the Ravel G major adagio ? Wow, I'd love to hear it... there's a great creative tradition of such things e.g. Uri Caine's take on Beethoven's Diabelli Variations with no less than the Concerto Köln (if it's good enough for them etc...) or his remodellings of Mahler's Songs with his own ensemble, both on Winter & Winter....

Well-known that Mozart (probably never played the same Piano Concerto the same way twice..), Bach etc improvised in their own live music-making all the time... we need much more of it now, and why not on record...

Jan Garbarek's great in the right time & place... gloomy late night, just before bed.....
Just don't overplay them, is all...

Jayne, it’s on BBB iPlayer ‘Breakfast’. Go to 2 hrs.10.

Btw, where are you in Liverpool? I was born and brought up in Broadgreen and my husband in Everton.

[cloughie]

Jayne, it’s on BBB iPlayer ‘Breakfast’. Go to 2 hrs.10.

Btw, where are you in Liverpool? I was born and brought up in Broadgreen and my husband in Everton.

I had a listen on iplayer - as I really like the original so was wondering what to expect - I actually quite liked it - does not improve on the original - there aren't many Ravel works that require improvement but it did no destroy it, and showed Ravel can stand up to a little different treatment!

[Quarky]

What the devil was that abomination on Breakfast this morning? What is the point of improvising the piano solo while the orchestra plays the original, unaltered music?
Why does Radio 3 continue to think it can impress us with these radical recordings? Herbie Hancock is a first-rate jazz musician and should stick to what he does best.
How many people would buy his recording when there are so many magnificent performances of the original work and why does Ravel need such an approach?
I felt the same about the Hilliard Ensemble recording with Jan Garbarek where at first, the result was quite haunting but soon became tiring. Stop it please!!!

The experts have said it all, but perhaps there is one point worth making.

While I respect the point of view of Paulie 55, he didn't want to hear that type of music on Breakfast, that's fair enough, BUT Concerto in G was apparently Jazz-influenced:

Another jazz-influenced Ravel work is the Concerto for Piano in G Major, completed the following year. Here, the influence of Gershwin is easier to detect. Pollack writes that “Gershwin unquestionably influenced Ravel’s later work, in particular the Piano Concerto in G Major, completed in 1931, a work long regarded as a kind of homage to Gershwin, though its debts to Satie and Milhaud are perhaps greater still.” https://csosoundsandstories.org/fasc...-age-new-york/

So perhaps it's not unfair for a Jazz musician to explore the piece.

I guess I'm in a minority in actually listening to Breakfast. ian Skelly has just informed us there are more Herbie Hancock treats on the way!

[oddoneout]

I guess I'm in a minority in actually listening to Breakfast. ian Skelly has just informed us there are more Herbie Hancock treats on the way!

I heard that too(one piece has already been played as the Breakfast/EC handover) and had to smile. I think Mr Skelly is perhaps doing a gentle bit of stirring?

[MrGongGong]

Sounds interesting will check it out.
Thanks for letting us know

What is the point of improvising the piano solo while the orchestra plays the original, unaltered music?

How long have you got ?

But seriously i've work to do today as we have a rather complex gig tomorrow (Middlesborough if anyone fancies it?)

[french frank]

I wonder, mainly re Radio 3: do jazz/folk pieces 'reworked' by classical composers, and classical works 'reworked' by jazz musicians, figure more often on classical programmes than on jazz/folk programmes? My impression is that they do - and if I'm right, what does that say about classical audiences and programmers v jazz/folk audiences and programmers?

Comments, please, from those who have a wider knowledge of these genres than me: right from medieval times, composers now seen as developing the 'classical' strand of music have 'reworked' traditional, popular tunes and these have been thoroughly absorbed into the 'classical' canon' (Dufay, Mozart, Vaughan Williams). Are there examples where classical contributions have been similarly absorbed as to become 'jazz'?

[My feeling is that classical performers playing jazz are also less esteemed than jazz performers playing classical works]

[cloughie]

The experts have said it all, but perhaps there is one point worth making.

While I respect the point of view of Paulie 55, he didn't want to hear that type of music on Breakfast, that's fair enough, BUT Concerto in G was apparently Jazz-influenced:

Another jazz-influenced Ravel work is the Concerto for Piano in G Major, completed the following year. Here, the influence of Gershwin is easier to detect. Pollack writes that “Gershwin unquestionably influenced Ravel’s later work, in particular the Piano Concerto in G Major, completed in 1931, a work long regarded as a kind of homage to Gershwin, though its debts to Satie and Milhaud are perhaps greater still.” https://csosoundsandstories.org/fasc...-age-new-york/

So perhaps it's not unfair for a Jazz musician to explore the piece.

I guess I'm in a minority in actually listening to Breakfast. ian Skelly has just informed us there are more Herbie Hancock treats on the way!

Are you talking about the LH concerto?

[MrGongGong]

I wonder, mainly re Radio 3: do jazz/folk pieces 'reworked' by classical composers, and classical works 'reworked' by jazz musicians, figure more often on classical programmes than on jazz/folk programmes? My impression is that they do - and if I'm right, what does that say about classical audiences and programmers v jazz/folk audiences and programmers?

Comments, please, from those who have a wider knowledge of these genres than me: right from medieval times, composers now seen as developing the 'classical' strand of music have 'reworked' traditional, popular tunes and these have been thoroughly absorbed into the 'classical' canon' (Dufay, Mozart, Vaughan Williams). Are there examples where classical contributions have been similarly absorbed as to become 'jazz'?

[My feeling is that classical performers playing jazz are also less esteemed than jazz performers playing classical works]

(You know i'm going to say this )

Blah blah blah artificial "genre" boundaries that serve no-one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4esVHviM-M0&frags=pl%2Cwn

(did a bit of live electronics / Carnatic singing / field recordings / drones in an event run by the Marsden Jazz Festival yesterday ...."Jazz" ? naaaah )

[french frank]

(You know i'm going to say this )

Blah blah blah artificial "genre" boundaries that serve no-one

But that ignores the point I was making, which I will make more forcibly: Modern 'classical' composers and audiences are more open (or are forced to be!) to influences from other 'genres' than jazz/folk audiences, who are more rigid in excluding 'classical influences - unless you can provide the examples I was asking about.

Genres exist.

[MrGongGong]

But that ignores the point I was making, which I will make more forcibly: Modern 'classical' composers and audiences are more open (or are forced to be!) to influences from other 'genres' than jazz/folk audiences, who are more rigid in excluding 'classical influences - unless you can provide the examples I was asking about.

Genres exist.

One point is (maybe ?) that outside the realm of forums such as this, people don't necessarily think of themselves as "classical / jazz / folk etc " audiences.
Plenty of Jazz ("Jazz") is full of "Classical" music quotations and so on.

Yes, I know genres "exist" but they aren't always useful (but are some of the time)

[Bryn]

One point is (maybe ?) that outside the realm of forums such as this, people don't necessarily think of themselves as "classical / jazz / folk etc " audiences.
Plenty of Jazz ("Jazz") is full of "Classical" music quotations and so on.

Yes, I know genres "exist" but they aren't always useful (but are some of the time)

Indeed. Saint-Saëns's Third gets everywhere, even England Rugby crowds, for instance.

[MrGongGong]

Indeed. Saint-Saëns's Third gets everywhere, even England Rugby crowds, for instance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJFuVhsemVs&list=RDvJFuVhsemVs&start_radio=1

[french frank]

One point is (maybe ?) that outside the realm of forums such as this, people don't necessarily think of themselves as "classical / jazz / folk etc " audiences.

Really? That might need some investigation. What I would say is that 'some' people would say that they enjoy 'all sorts of music': classical, jazz, progressive rock and/or folk/roots/world. But that isn't the same as saying they don't make a distinction. Or that they don't enjoy several of the genres, but not all of them (in very many cases classical is excluded by 'open-minded' music lovers.

Plenty of Jazz ("Jazz") is full of "Classical" music quotations and so on.

This is what I was enquiring about, but your reply doesn't include 'examples'. I've heard jazz fans dismiss Barenboim's performances ("Why do classical musicians think they can play jazz?") as well as Jacques Loussier ("not really jazz"). That is a personal observation, not a generalisation about jazz lovers.

Yes, I know genres "exist" but they aren't always useful (but are some of the time)

Yes, they have their function … I quite agree with you

[cloughie]

One point is (maybe ?) that outside the realm of forums such as this, people don't necessarily think of themselves as "classical / jazz / folk etc " audiences.

I’m not sure I would agree with you there - there are many people whose musical choices are very narrow. This forum has probably a majority who would not be solely “classical” audiences.

[MrGongGong]

Really? That might need some investigation.

I'll keep asking then

I've been listening to this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwemY70CAdk&frags=pl%2Cwn