Excuse me but do you mean….?

[ahinton]

I'll attempt a compendious reply to all the above.

It was clear that PG was 'live' in the studio (hence the belated correction). It seems unlikely that they pre-record some of the links when the presenter is, er, present in real time.

Further, as Bryn has surmised, they were broadcasting a recording of a complete concert from the Elbphilharmonie, so it wasn't a case of putting the wrong CD in. It's a mystery how the VC came to be listed and announced as Bartók 1, again as Bryn says.

And the Ivesian question remains: assuming that Penny Gore at least stuck around for the opening bars before shucking the cans and settling down for a chat over a cuppa, how on earth did neither she nor anyone else in the studio recognise the opening bars as those of Prokofiev VC1, not Bartók, so as to be able to do an immediate correction, instead of repeating the mistake post-performance? Further evidence, surely, of a worrying shallowness of knowledge at Radio 3.

Since PG has quite a long record of R3 presentation, it would indeed seem likely that she simply wasn't listening to the music being broadcast; I cannot imagine an alternative explanation for this gaffe. That said, as it was clearly not a simple case of the wrong CD being selected (as this was a broadcast of a live concert), it does seem all the more likely that the presenter simply wasn't listening to the music being relayed, for I cannot imagine PG making so fundamental a mistake through an inability to distinguish between those two concertos, the latter of which is very well known indeed.

[underthecountertenor]

Since PG has quite a long record of R3 presentation, it would indeed seem likely that she simply wasn't listening to the music being broadcast; I cannot imagine an alternative explanation for this gaffe. That said, as it was clearly not a simple case of the wrong CD being selected (as this was a broadcast of a live concert), it does seem all the more likely that the presenter simply wasn't listening to the music being relayed, for I cannot imagine PG making so fundamental a mistake through an inability to distinguish between those two concertos, the latter of which is very well known indeed.

Well maybe, but if that is so it is curious that, when she eventually corrected the mistake, she made a point of saying words to the effect of how wonderful it was to hear Frank Peter Zimmerman in any repertory. Which would suggest either that she was listening (and couldn't tell the difference) or that she was being ever so slightly disingenuous.

[doversoul1]

This is just a guess but it maybe that presenters are not allowed to correct mistakes on the script or brief in their capacity. My example about countertenor/castrato was on Early Music Late presented by Elin Manahan Thomas. It was impossible that EMT didn’t know the difference. As it was a recorded programme it could have been corrected during the recording but it wasn’t. I think it is unfair to call all mistakes as a gaffer although some are definitely deserve to be called that.

[Bryn]

Just a reminder that Radio 3 presenters write their own scripts.

[Serial_Apologist]

This is just a guess but it maybe that presenters are not allowed to correct mistakes on the script or brief in their capacity. My example about countertenor/castrato was on Early Music Late presented by Elin Manahan Thomas. It was impossible that EMT didn’t know the difference. As it was a recorded programme it could have been corrected during the recording but it wasn’t. I think it is unfair to call all mistakes as a gaffer although some are definitely deserve to be called that.

The works wrongly announced would have had to be pre-recorded on Gaffer tape for that to be the case.

(All right, all right, I'll get my coat!)

[underthecountertenor]

This is just a guess but it maybe that presenters are not allowed to correct mistakes on the script or brief in their capacity. My example about countertenor/castrato was on Early Music Late presented by Elin Manahan Thomas. It was impossible that EMT didn’t know the difference. As it was a recorded programme it could have been corrected during the recording but it wasn’t. I think it is unfair to call all mistakes as a gaffer although some are definitely deserve to be called that.

As to Penny Gore's error, I cannot believe that she would not have been allowed to point out that it wasn't Bartók but Prokofiev that was being played had she spotted it, but was forced to repeat the error.

As to EMT, it's her programme. Again, I cannot believe that she is tied to a script regardless of obvious errors. And I'm afraid I am far from confident that she has a sufficient level of knowledge to present Early Music Late, or indeed that she was selected to present the programme on the basis of such knowledge, as opposed to her supposed value as a 'personality'.

[underthecountertenor]

Just a reminder that Radio 3 presenters write their own scripts.

Thanks Bryn. I missed your post when I was writing mine - would have saved me a lot of time.

[doversoul1]

Just a reminder that Radio 3 presenters write their own scripts.

I think this depends on what you mean by presenters. Some presenters are primarily announcers (obviously good knowledge of classical music) while others present in the capacity of reviewer/critic; Sarah Walker and Andrew McGregor for example who obviously write their own script but I doubt Penny Gore, Gill Anderson, and maybe Ian Skelly do.

There has been an occasion when the same script was read on two programmes by different presenters: the concert first broadcast on Through the Night was repeated on one of the predecessors of the Early Music Late. The same script was read by John Shea on Through the Night and by Jonathan Swain when it was repeated. Also, there have been a few occasions when the script on the broadcast and the blurb in the website were most part identical. From all this, I don’t think all scripts are written by the presenters.


underthecountertenor
Re: Elin Manahan Thomas

I can’t believe a specialist Baroque singer who has performed with the Monteverdi Choir, The Sixteen, and other early music groups has not enough knowledge about Baroque, especially vocal music. This is just my opinion but I don’t think EMT has the sort of ‘personality’ that is meant to carry the programme. Her script or presentation does not draw attention to the presenter unlike on some presenter oriented programmes.

The BBC is a massive organisation. If every presenter is allowed or expected to correct mistakes in the script they are given, the system has to be terribly complicated; what if the presenter mis- corrected it, if the presenter didn’t correct it or when the announcement is pre-recorded, who is to be responsible etc., etc.. I think it is most likely that the presenter is not expected to correct the (mis) information as s/he reads the script. I think there are probably different contracts amongst the presenters as I mention above.

[underthecountertenor]

I think this depends on what you mean by presenters. Some presenters are primarily announcers (obviously good knowledge of classical music) while others present in the capacity of reviewer/critic; Sarah Walker and Andrew McGregor for example who obviously write their own script but I doubt Penny Gore, Gill Anderson, and maybe Ian Skelly do.

There has been an occasion when the same script was read on two programmes by different presenters: the concert first broadcast on Through the Night was repeated on one of the predecessors of the Early Music Late. The same script was read by John Shea on Through the Night and by Jonathan Swain when it was repeated. Also, there have been a few occasions when the script on the broadcast and the blurb in the website were most part identical. From all this, I don’t think all scripts are written by the presenters.


underthecountertenor
Re: Elin Manahan Thomas

I can’t believe a specialist Baroque singer who has performed with the Monteverdi Choir, The Sixteen, and other early music groups has not enough knowledge about Baroque, especially vocal music. This is just my opinion but I don’t think EMT has the sort of ‘personality’ that is meant to carry the programme. Her script or presentation does not draw attention to the presenter unlike on some presenter oriented programmes.

The BBC is a massive organisation. If every presenter is allowed or expected to correct mistakes in the script they are given, the system has to be terribly complicated; what if the presenter mis- corrected it, if the presenter didn’t correct it or when the announcement is pre-recorded, who is to be responsible etc., etc.. I think it is most likely that the presenter is not expected to correct the (mis) information as s/he reads the script. I think there are probably different contracts amongst the presenters as I mention above.

Sorry, but all the above seems a bit desperate to me.

What makes you doubt that Penny Gore, Gill Anderson and (in particular) Ian ‘call me quirky’ Skelly write their own scripts?

As to EMT, it doesn’t follow from the fact that she has sung a fair amount of baroque music that she knows about the history of the thing. The fact is that she made a patent mistake on a recorded show, and neither she nor any of her team corrected it.

And I’m afraid your last paragraph makes no sense to me at all.

[doversoul1]

Sorry, but all the above seems a bit desperate to me.

What makes you doubt that Penny Gore, Gill Anderson and (in particular) Ian ‘call me quirky’ Skelly write their own scripts?

As to EMT, it doesn’t follow from the fact that she has sung a fair amount of baroque music that she knows about the history of the thing. The fact is that she made a patent mistake on a recorded show, and neither she nor any of her team corrected it.

And I’m afraid your last paragraph makes no sense to me at all.

By script, I mean a piece of writing that is to be read out. When Penny Gore presents a concert, my guess is that she is given the details (names) of the works, composers and the performers. I expect she notes down beforehand additional information to fill in the time but not a piece of writing to be read out. That’s what announcers do. As for more structured programmes like Early Music Late, Composer of the Week, and (most) Building a Library, the script is prepared either by the presenter or someone else to be read out. The point I was making in response to Bryn was that not all we hear was written by the presenter.

As for Elin Manahan Thomas, I’m sure you don’t need to be told but almost all early music groups that are active today are very much research orientated. Performers don’t just learn the music they are to perform.

The last bit was just my fancy. Forget it.

I hope I have made things clearer.

[underthecountertenor]

‘O Mio Bambino Caro’ from Elizabeth Alker this morning.

[french frank]

‘O Mio Bambino Caro’ from Elizabeth Alker this morning.

Oh, mein Papa

[LMcD]

This has also been covered on the 'The Eternal Breakfast Debate In A New Place' thread.

[doversoul1]

It’s now safe to draw attention to this.

I don’t think this is the first time but Record Review page published the result of today’s BaL yesterday. I see this as a complete lack of care. We deserve better.