Ian Skelly says............

[Rob Cowan]

Thanks for that ff! I know where you're coming from (of course!) but surely there's a value - a real value - in playing a movement from something that encourages people to investigate further, the two versions of Beethoven 2 or the Glazunov on tonight's programme being perfect cases in point. Very often when I'm demonstrating pieces here at home I play just one, maybe two movements and send people on their way hungry for more. Yes, I certainly want depth too, but the time and context need to be right. Very best. Rob

[DracoM]

Yes, Rob, depth too....BUT quarrel with it is that in Ess Class there are so bloomin' FEW whole pieces. Ir's wallpaper and becoming increasingly so.

Most R3 listeners knew/know YOU for your scholarship in the genre, but I fear the programme seems to go out of its way to make sure that we don't frighten anybody by actually playing a WHOLE piece.....phew! Suppose they get bored and go away....ouch... after all, few 'tracks' in R2 are longer than five minutes, and its daring to go any longer there on R2, so as all BBC Music is under one office now, that must be a rule for R3 too........

In one way I feel sorry for IS, but of all short straws, this is one of the shortest. 'Tracks' is what its about, not education, or scholarship..........

[oddoneout]

Thank you Rob for your gentlemanly( am I allowed to use that term these days?)input and I'm glad you are enjoying your new job.

[french frank]

Thanks for that ff! I know where you're coming from (of course!)

Oh dear, that sounds like the internet threat: I. KNOW. WHERE. YOU. LIVE! ? )

but surely there's a value - a real value - in playing a movement from something that encourages people to investigate further, the two versions of Beethoven 2 or the Glazunov on tonight's programme being perfect cases in point.

I think that's at the heart of the problem. For many R3 listeners, they're not looking simply for, hmm, how can I put it? a constant "trusted guide" who is somehow placed 'higher' than they are, more knowledgeable, showing them the way. There must be an audience that appreciates that, and it may be that's one difference between the CFM and the R3 audiences.

The difference between an old Discovering Music programme with critical analysis could be appreciated for its rigour. Building a Library even with "snippets" has some rigour (hopefully). But if you're addressing an audience of listeners, many of whom already know and have several versions of Beethoven 2, they would probably rather hear a less commonly heard version all the way through. The idea of an entire THREE-HOUR programme which doesn't play anything longer than 20 minutes makes one wonder what and who is it for?

[Rob Cowan]

I'm all for rigour - the sort I employ in Gramophone - but I'm now off the case with EC and don't feel qualified to comment. Best to contact the programme direct: they're a super bunch. With CFM I'm having fun (with rigour) ... I'm passing round appetising canopés and they're of the highest quality. Once consumed you can order a full meal using same or similar ingredients ... that's the idea. And I'm grateful that there are, or seem to be, plenty of takers out there. What you're talking about ff although extremely important is something entirely different. And when I say I know where you're coming from I don't mean your street, more the nearest roundabout! Thanks oddoneout for your sympathetic remark.

[antongould]

Interesting comments. Tonight on Cowan's Classics, a complete and little known concerto [18 mins] - Conus played by Heifetz, that priceless 'speaking' tone, in black-and-white sound, true, but a gem. As to 'movements', there's always a reason - the Beaux Arts Trio fills the 'artist of the week' slot and again, it's a great chance to sample something unusual, ie Beethoven's own trio arrangement of his Second Symphony (alongside Katsaris playing a movement from Liszt's take on the same work) and Arensky's Second Trio (the First is the one we usually hear, but the Second is even better). I try to make Beyond the Hall of Fame as interesting as possible and hopefully anyone who hears Glazunov's troubadour stalking Rimsky's young prince and young princess will agree. There's Khovanstchina in Shostakovich's orchestration (rarely heard) and the end of The Rite with Andsnes and Hamelin - very 'pre-Westside Story'. May I proffer the view that playing movements is perfectly acceptable where people want to dip a toe in, in other words if that's what they're used to doing. I'm loving this new CFM programme and the opportunities that it is offering me to come up with interesting sequences. Ian is really great - a real hoot and an easy listen - and an appropriate host for the 'new' EC. Anyway just thought I'd bring you up to speed and please drop by tonight, or any Saturday night, or via listen again to classicfm.com (though wait for the ads to finish first - you'll then see a list of programmes to choose from). Very best to you all and do write to me at classicfm.com Rob

Very good of you to come back on this Mr. Cowan. I was simply doing a job for the Forum as a number of contributors had asked if anyone had heard your new show. I will say that IMVVHO the new show plays to your strengths much more than the revamped EC. Personally I just don't like adverts but as the station runs on them you are where you are .... I still feel however that introducing the piece before the adverts is a touch incongruous, or is it station policy ..... ????

[Rob Cowan]

Thanks antongould .... much appreciated. 'Introducing the piece before the adverts' is station policy - sometimes - but I'll pass on your remarks. For what it's worth I too think that 'the new show plays to [my] strengths much more than the revamped EC'. That was why I took CFM up on their welcome offer - I could see the potential and thankfully so could they. Very best, Rob.

[Historian]

I feel that we live in a world where fewer and fewer people in the 'public eye' are prepared to discuss anything with members of the general public in any meaningful way (as distinct from repeating the official line). So, I would like to thank Rob Cowan for taking the time to consider and respond carefully to the points made here.

It would seem that the attitude of Classic FM management to interaction with listeners is, perhaps, more 'relaxed' than that of the BBC. Mr. Cowan, I would not expect you to comment on the latter point. Thank you again.

[oddoneout]

Personally I just don't like adverts but as the station runs on them you are where you are

This is still the stumbling block for me, but I have to say that the increasing level of trailertrash on R3 is not as far behind in the irritation/mood-destroying stakes now as I would like....

[antongould]

I feel that we live in a world where fewer and fewer people in the 'public eye' are prepared to discuss anything with members of the general public in any meaningful way (as distinct from repeating the official line). So, I would like to thank Rob Cowan for taking the time to consider and respond carefully to the points made here.

It would seem that the attitude of Classic FM management to interaction with listeners is, perhaps, more 'relaxed' than that of the BBC. Mr. Cowan, I would not expect you to comment on the latter point. Thank you again.

Very well said ......

[Old Grumpy]

I feel that we live in a world where fewer and fewer people in the 'public eye' are prepared to discuss anything with members of the general public in any meaningful way (as distinct from repeating the official line). So, I would like to thank Rob Cowan for taking the time to consider and respond carefully to the points made here.

It would seem that the attitude of Classic FM management to interaction with listeners is, perhaps, more 'relaxed' than that of the BBC. Mr. Cowan, I would not expect you to comment on the latter point. Thank you again.

[jonfan]

The assumption seems to be that listeners can’t cope with complete, demanding music in the morning. Only after 2pm are we ready for complete works (that’s well into the evening if it’s CFM.) I wonder what research this is based on? I’m listening to the Ring in the mornings at the moment when I’m at the freshest for concentrated listening. (Granted I’m retired so can do that.)

[doversoul1]

The assumption seems to be that listeners can’t cope with complete, demanding music in the morning. Only after 2pm are we ready for complete works (that’s well into the evening if it’s CFM.) I wonder what research this is based on? I’m listening to the Ring in the mornings at the moment when I’m at the freshest for concentrated listening. (Granted I’m retired so can do that.)

It may not be that ‘they’ think many listeners are (mentally) unable to cope with full/long works but more like that ‘they’ assume many people are not be sitting down ready to listen to a full symphony at this time of the day.

Although I see Rob’s point that a movement can entice people to listen to the work in full, I don’t think it should be offered at random on the programme of this quantity (3 hours, 5 days a week). I think the programme can be improved by giving it a pattern/structure, for example, to include a long work (or two) in full at a set point in each programme and maybe one movement for an introduction, again at a set time. And most importantly, the playlist should be published prior to the programme going on air. ‘Music played’ is just not good enough for Radio 3 and its listeners.

[Alison]

Rob has always had a penchant for arrangements!

I guess many of us came to a love of music through full immersion in the real thing and want the same for others.

[Serial_Apologist]

Rob has always had a penchant for arrangements!

I guess many of us came to a love of music through full immersion in the real thing and want the same for others.

That's probably because the composers concerned composed it to be heard that way, as a whole and not split up. They might even have argued the case for it not making any sense taken out of context, rather in the way that a severed limb makes no functional sense apart from the body to which it was once attached. Someone has come along and presented you with only part of the story. That's OK where this has been sanctioned by the originator, but in most cases where "purple patches" have been extracted for easy listening what you're getting is in effect a falsehood, the equivalent of history re-written. It may make sense to isolate a single movement, say, for examination; but the evidence won't add to the knowledge of the examiner unless he or she has first experienced the whole thing. These are the reasons I can't be bothered with programmes of this kind, and why Radio 3 has become a no-go area for me in the mornings.