Implications of Radio 2 changes

[french frank]

given Beefo's comments here over a long period of time, the fact that this British composer wasn't played at all in 2017 on R3 is a clear indication to me that there is complete indifference to public viewpoints.

The problem with that as an assertion is that 'public viewpoints' of that kind can be completely opposed to each other. DracoM appears to be unkeen on 'the station's favourite' Ian Skelly, but feels quite the opposite about Verity Sharpe. However much or little enthusiasm 'the public' may have in such matters it isn't hard in 98.4% of cases to find members of 'the public' who disagree. When you find 98.4% agreeing you can be, in a limited way, sure what 'the public viewpoint' is.

[Lat-Literal]

The problem with that as an assertion is that 'public viewpoints' of that kind can be completely opposed to each other. DracoM appears to be unkeen on 'the station's favourite' Ian Skelly, but feels quite the opposite about Verity Sharpe. However much or little enthusiasm 'the public' may have in such matters it isn't hard in 98.4% of cases to find members of 'the public' who disagree. When you find 98.4% agreeing you can be, in a limited way, sure what 'the public viewpoint' is.

I agree - rationally it would be impossible to disagree - but what about viewpoints as ideas as opposed to representative or non-representative preferences? To take the Simpson example, let us say that it has been put forward here enthusiastically as an idea. Is it that R3 have dismissed it as an idea or are they completely oblivious to it as an idea? If they have dismissed it as an idea, then it would be helpful to hear the justification. Is it that including one Simpson piece in a year would lose them audience? If so, I reckon that's illogical.

[french frank]

To take the Simpson example, let us say that it has been put forward here enthusiastically as an idea. Is it that R3 have dismissed it as an idea or are they completely oblivious to it as an idea?

Well, if it's put forward here, I'd say Radio 3 is largely oblivious. It would need someone who happened to have read it here to feel strongly enough about it to bring it up at the Weekly Meeting - assuming there is one and they're invited to it. I have met Radio 3 managers on a number of occasions but must confess I didn't bring up the case of Mr Simpson with them. Ever. And how many other such cases should I have brought up?

[Ed smittims was always on about Bernard van Dieren]

[Lat-Literal]

Well, if it's put forward here, I'd say Radio 3 is largely oblivious. It would need someone who happened to have read it here to feel strongly enough about it to bring it up at the Weekly Meeting - assuming there is one and they're invited to it. I have met Radio 3 managers on a number of occasions but must confess I didn't bring up the case of Mr Simpson with them. Ever. And how many other such cases should I have brought up?

I don't think there is a should in that regard. You did what you could do as appropriate. But we have seen the data from a poster now for a decade. The numbers vary a little but the overall shape is unchanged. There must be some big idea or several big ideas there. Who is played a lot. Who might be played on occasion. Quite a lot of what is at the top of those tables is self-explanatory. There isn't going to be a year when there is just ten minutes of Bach. I suppose a lot of the middle ranking are not wholly surprising either. But if someone were to ask me if it is crystal clear what the general ideas are behind what is being done I would find it hard to answer. Koechlin so far above Honegger; Barber so far below Bernstein; the very strong showing for Macmillan; the constant preference for Weir over many female composers. I don't get that and I don't see what the idea or ideas are in such examples.

[Lat-Literal]

There are all sorts of alternative models.

They could decide to increase the number of composers played 50, 15, 5 and 1 time(s) per annum by 50%, for example.

But their idea is that that idea would not be a good one, not that they have said or would ever say why.

[french frank]

To take the Simpson example, let us say that it has been put forward here enthusiastically as an idea. Is it that R3 have dismissed it as an idea

Well, they seem to have listened to some extent in that they've played Symphony No 5 (2013), the cello concerto (2014), horn trio (2011) and the Four Temperaments suite for brass (2014). That's probably more than other composers have enjoyed. I don't think it would be human if those who have the opportunity to select didn't choose, favourites/composers they rated.

I don't see this as the most important failing of Radio 3.

[Lat-Literal]

Well, they seem to have listened to some extent in that they've played Symphony No 5 (2013), the cello concerto (2014), horn trio (2011) and the Four Temperaments suite for brass (2014). That's probably more than other composers have enjoyed. I don't think it would be human if those who have the opportunity to select didn't choose, favourites/composers they rated.

I don't see this as the most important failing of Radio 3.

Ah, but to what extent do they choose - and to what extent is there, if not a playlist exactly, a framework of some sort?

If Rob is still with us, back pack of records and all, perhaps he would like to comment?

Is it just that no one on R3 very much likes, who shall we use as an example here, George Lloyd?

[Lat-Literal]

It appears that there will now be a voice during the night on BBC Radio 2 from the spring in the form of OJ Borg.

Here he is with his friends: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15gtvLXeP2E

(This is apparently what the 30-50 year olds want)

So, yes, actually the current position is preferential....but it may be only a matter of time before he replaces Evans.

Elsewhere, Jo Wiley teams up with Simon Mayo for an extended evening show, 5pm to 8pm, and ladette Sara Cox is getting her own show, 10pm-Midnight. This enables the station partially to claim that it has a woman presenter in the daytime and it has increased its female quota during the week. Cerys Matthews is replacing Paul Jones in the blues programme on a Monday. That show and the other hourly programmes on specialist music - jazz, folk and country - will all be broadcast one hour later at 8pm. The full schedule for 9pm-10pm appears not to have been fully decided. They just know what it is they don't want. "Sounds of the 80s" will be handed to veteran DJ Gary Davies who is probably a better fit than Sara Cox.

This is Angela Scanlon who has been lined up to entertain middle aged adults early on Sunday morning:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msfSTlP8Tyg

If this is gender equality, let's go back to inequality...........the world's gone seriously downhill.

[cloughie]

Y

It appears that there will now be a voice during the night on BBC Radio 2 from the spring in the form of OJ Borg.

Here he is with his friends: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15gtvLXeP2E

(This is apparently what the 30-50 year olds want)

So, yes, actually the current position is preferential....but it may be only a matter of time before he replaces Evans.

Elsewhere, Jo Wiley teams up with Simon Mayo for an extended evening show, 5pm to 8pm, and ladette Sara Cox is getting her own show, 10pm-Midnight. This enables the station partially to claim that it has a woman presenter in the daytime and it has increased its female quota during the week. Cerys Matthews is replacing Paul Jones in the blues programme on a Monday. That show and the other hourly programmes on specialist music - jazz, folk and country - will all be broadcast one hour later at 8pm. The full schedule for 9pm-10pm appears not to have been fully decided. They just know what it is they don't want. "Sounds of the 80s" will be handed to veteran DJ Gary Davies who is probably a better fit than Sara Cox.

This is Angela Scanlon who has been lined up to entertain middle aged adults early on Sunday morning:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msfSTlP8Tyg

If this is gender equality, let's go back to inequality...........the world's gone seriously downhill.

It just gets worse and worse and worse, there is so little on radio worth a listen these days!

[Lat-Literal]

Y

It just gets worse and worse and worse, there is so little on radio worth a listen these days!

Mostly I feel that I have passed the point of being amazed to the point of appalled when researching modern developments. Then I discover that I still have some way to go. On OJ Borg and Angela Scanlon, I did have some sort of apparition. It was of an immigrant, perhaps African or Indian, who had just arrived in this country. A dignified character with a mixture of excitement and anticipation based on traditional ideas of Britain, some linked to the BBC. Once here, he or she switches on the radio on a couple of occasions. There's a bloke of nearly 40 attempting to chuck as many marshmallows down his throat as he can while a couple of twerps cheer and jeer. Later, a woman nearly in the second half of her 30s getting over-excited by the word "bums" and chucking in the f word to equal "the men". That immigrant. She or he must feel not only bewildered but so terribly let down and depressed. Let us all just hope there is reasonable balance in his or her character. My guess is that it will only be that facet which ensures that radical Islam continues to be less than attractive to him/her.

Anyhow, Bob Shennan - "a safe pair of hands", apparently.

Don't make me larff.

[french frank]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/lat...pring-schedule
I love the euphemism 'rested'

Just reminded me: Mark Russell's description of how Mixing It was axed: 'Last November Roger Wright (Controller Of Radio 3) took Robert & I into the DG’s office at Broadcasting House in London for a short meeting (5 minutes max). His exact words were, and I remember them vividly because they puzzled me briefly, ‘I’m giving Mixing It a break and I have no plans to bring it back’. He offered no explanation other than to say it didn’t fit into his new schedule. He said he wanted Mixing It to fade away quietly – no publicity or big fanfares – he wanted his new schedule to get all that.'

So:

'The Organist Entertains (Tuesday 11pm-11.30pm), presented by Nigel Ogden; Listen To The Band (Tuesday 11.30-midnight) the weekly 30 minute programme featuring brass and military band music presented by Frank Renton; and the Radio 2 Arts Show (Thursday 10pm-midnight) will all be rested.'

It does sound as if the implications of the changes are for Radio 2 (described by radio pundit John Myers as 'a tanker steaming in the wrong direction') rather than Radio 3. As long as R2 keeps its 15-16m middle-aged, middle of the road listeners, the BBC will be happy.

[Stanfordian]

Y

It just gets worse and worse and worse, there is so little on radio worth a listen these days!

Hiya cloughie,

Yes, it could certainly get worse and worse. Let's hope Clare Teal (excellent singer) doesn't become a R3 presenter. I couldn't cope with all that brain numbing over enthusiasm and wanting to be yer mate.

[Lat-Literal]

Just reminded me: Mark Russell's description of how Mixing It was axed: 'Last November Roger Wright (Controller Of Radio 3) took Robert & I into the DG’s office at Broadcasting House in London for a short meeting (5 minutes max). His exact words were, and I remember them vividly because they puzzled me briefly, ‘I’m giving Mixing It a break and I have no plans to bring it back’. He offered no explanation other than to say it didn’t fit into his new schedule. He said he wanted Mixing It to fade away quietly – no publicity or big fanfares – he wanted his new schedule to get all that.'

So:

'The Organist Entertains (Tuesday 11pm-11.30pm), presented by Nigel Ogden; Listen To The Band (Tuesday 11.30-midnight) the weekly 30 minute programme featuring brass and military band music presented by Frank Renton; and the Radio 2 Arts Show (Thursday 10pm-midnight) will all be rested.'

It does sound as if the implications of the changes are for Radio 2 (described by radio pundit John Myers as 'a tanker steaming in the wrong direction') rather than Radio 3. As long as R2 keeps its 15-16m middle-aged, middle of the road listeners, the BBC will be happy.

Interesting point about John Myers. But let us not lose my point on the middle aged. They need redefining. You might recall that the powers that be became worried when the average age of R1 listeners unfathomably went up to 32. At the same time, they were concerned that the average age of R2 listeners had increased to 52. The R1 point was addressed. This news to my mind is the addressing of the R2 point. They want those aged 30 to 50. Having thought about it further - and "visited" half a dozen BBC local radio stations last night - I suspect it's there where the over 50s are intended to be until the BBC local network is ditched. This marks parallel changes in society. Back in the mid 1970s I could sit in the car of my uncle, a businessman then his early 30s with conservative popular tastes. David Hamilton, R2, would be on the radio. The following morning I could be in the kitchen of his mother, then in her late 60s. She would be listening to Pete Murray, also on R2. Had they had the opportunity to do so, each would have been listening to the same presenters on R2 at 47 and 80.

In the decades that followed, R2's appeal to real old people was gradually erased. And by the early 2000s, people in their 80s were regularly putting on parachutes to jump out of aeroplanes. Everyone was incredibly excited how 60 was the new 40. Ultimately the formal retirement age was dropped so that we had the euphemism of older people having the "opportunity" to work. While some of that remains - the latter has to for financial reasons - the emphasis has now substantially shifted. The over 50s are told that they have reached the age where "things go wrong". All media to which they are attracted is filled with adverts for stair lifts, life insurance for the over 50s, terminal illness and making wills. Of course, much of this comes from Americanised liberalisation. That many are house owners is increasingly viewed as a bloody nuisance. These are supposedly the generations who are over-privileged. At UCL, the psychology department is only in a mild pickle about having had open and ongoing discussion, as has Oxbridge, about the benefits of euthanasia as well as eugenics.

Broadcasting is playing its part in this realignment. It claims to be concerned that younger generations will be lost to radio. Hence the increasing emphasis there, although there is no hard evidence to back up the theory. It notes that everyone over 75 doesn't pay toward the BBC licence so why should it care? The middle aged in decision making roles haven't yet had to face the radical change that is retirement. Same as it ever was except that they come from the generations in which the concept of the teenager was so accentuated that they can't for the life of them face leaving it in their minds. To counter-balance their seniority, they are heavily influenced by their own offspring in a way that has never occurred before in history. That influence seeps into their character and professional decisions. What they would once have considered crass is now viewed as cool even though deep down they know it is crass.

The next generation - the ones on the rise - is even worse. Now in their 30s and often parents themselves, they haven't experienced whatever cultural richness might have been associated with the concept of the teenager when it was introduced. So what you get in those is a sort of Harry Enfield version of teenager mixed with power. There is, of course, a sense in them of having to fight what is in front of them because financially and in other ways it already seems bleak. Societally and culturally, it's a deeply toxic and even lethal mix.

To be clear: other than in terms of needing to be in work, it has been decided in this decade by the powers that be that 50 is the new 75; in other words, that it is not middle aged.

[Lat-Literal]

I think if I were responsible for BBC radio, I would be advocating a change from BBC Local Radio to BBC Regional Radio. That is what, in essence, already occurs late at night. With the savings - a reduction in local stations of at least 50% - I would introduce a Radio 2 Extra or a Radio 3 Extra; perhaps both with mainly common programming but with slight variations. This would free up R2 to be the dire vehicle they want and help to purify R3 for those wanting that. World Music, Jazz, Folk, Blues, Country, Brass Bands, Organs etc - all over to R2/3X.

[french frank]

Interesting point about John Myers. But let us not lose my point on the middle aged. They need redefining. You might recall that the powers that be became worried when the average age of R1 listeners unfathomably went up to 32.

Yes to the point about R2 and the older listener, but the R1 case was different. It was the commercials who complained that the BBC was starting to cater for the lucrative pop-loving 'middle youth' market (with older presenters like Chris Moyles) when its remit had been to target the 15-29 year-olds. The BBC conceded the point.

Jenny Abramsky boasted, when she was Director of Radio (or Audio and Music as it was briefly renamed) that R2 had the 'broadest range of music' of any radio station, and it did take in pop, orchestral, light classical, musicals, jazz, blues - all genres in their lighter, more popular forms. It was when the station began to reposition itself as the 'adult pop' station to distinguish it from R1, with older presenters from R1 moving to R2, and then the non-pop programmes gradually being dropped, that Radio 3 was volunteered to extend its 'non-classical' genres which would have a wider appeal than to the established Radio 3 audience, with one leap bringing in new listeners … and pushing out older ones.

It seems to me the common denominator between the 50+ listeners to Radio 2 (basically popular-music fans) and the R3 listeners in their 50s (basically classical fans) is that they all like a range of non-classical music. It's a no-brainer to introduce unaccustomed non-classical music to R3 and the Proms, as long as it's of the <ahem> 'discerning' kind. And for those who only want the established classical/jazz diet, well, it's still on the menu, isn't it? Mmm? Mmm?