Skelly replaces Cowan

[french frank]

e.g Stephen Johnson, David Owen Norris, maybe some remember Anthony Hopkins? Music patiently explained.

Music discussed and analysed, yes.

Ah, you mean the sort of music programmes that now are inexplicably on R4, and rather bizzarely do not seem to get trailed to death on R3.

Hmm. Yes, though I don't think it's inexplicable. R3's schedule is already padded out with presenter in studio with pile of records programmes which are cheap to produce. R4's budget is twice as big as R3's, and although its programmes are more expensive to produce, they do have a great deal of latitude about what it's spent on.

Examples from back in 2007:
Guide price for the R3 post Breakfast music strand, 2 hours, was £1600. Now 3 hours long.
Guide price for the R3 music feature, 45 minutes, £3,000-£5,000. Axed.

[Serial_Apologist]

Simply listening is too passive for me, but I recognise that others have a different view, and have the resources to listen differently.

But unless you think that those resources are somehow inborn, where are they likely to be found in today's national broadcasting climate?

[french frank]

But unless you think that those resources are somehow inborn, where are they likely to be found in today's national broadcasting climate?

I wasn't suggesting they were inborn. They are based on knowledge acquired, in many cases on Radio 3

[Serial_Apologist]

I wasn't suggesting they were inborn. They are based on knowledge acquired, in many cases on Radio 3

Indeed, that's the issue at stake.

[oddoneout]

e.g Stephen Johnson, David Owen Norris, maybe some remember Anthony Hopkins? Music patiently explained.

I remember Antony Hopkins, and being somewhat surprised when friends apparently had heard of him. It was a while before I found out about Anthony Hopkins whose work was in a different area of the arts....

[french frank]

I remember Antony Hopkins, and being somewhat surprised when friends apparently had heard of him. It was a while before I found out about Anthony Hopkins whose work was in a different area of the arts....

Anthony Hopkins also composed a little in his younger years and a reliable source told me Antony Hopkins occasionally received royalty cheques for them. Which of course he forwarded to the rightful recipient...

[Zucchini]

Anth[Sir] Anthony Hopkins also composed a little in his younger years..

Still does. I went to this recording. It was fun. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-16584155

[EdgeleyRob]

The R3 morning schedules during the years c1974 - 90 were unmissable for me.

I bunked off school many times just to listen in the early 70s

[Lat-Literal]

What are you saying has improved, Lat?

My listening doesn't go as far back as ferney's, but the 1980s to the beginning of the 1990s was for me the lure and the era that I most enjoyed. I survived Kenyon, but that was when I began to feel uncomfortable. The noticeable slide in the the mornings, for me, was most obvious in the years following the arrival of RW who clearly made it his brief to 'broaden the audience' in ways that fit the dictionary definition of 'dumbing down'. For the BBC, as long as it was finding an audience that enjoyed it, it didn't count as 'dumbing down'. And, of course, the term was/is viewed as insulting by listeners who did/do enjoy it.

That said, there are many here who want a Radio 3 very different from what I would want. Not least, they would welcome 'Throught the Night' for 24 hours. That would seem to me to omit an essential part of the service: education.

First, and as with Ferney, I think I am little surprised by the timeline of your gold standard as I had placed it earlier in my mind, for which my apologies. On reflection, I have probably got a little bit carried away in indicating improvements and also 2012 may have been a couple of years too early as a marker. But: (a) I feel the total immersion events are positive (b) Whatever one thinks of the likes of "Sacred River" they aren't miserably safe (c) There has appeared to be a little more programming re Latin American composers. That gives the impression of a greater open-mindedness although I accept the lists that are produced annually on composer coverage - suffolkcoastal? - don't indicate very dramatic shifts in that regard and (d) I'd argue that there is now greater cross-platforming between R3 and television especially at the time of the Proms. While the populism is overdone, the organisation with higher profiling is probably a good thing. Certainly I think that most music, drama, comedy, radio and tv seriously lost their way for a decade and probably far longer from around 1997.

[french frank]

First, and as with Ferney, I think I am little surprised by the timeline of your gold standard as I had placed it earlier in my mind &c.

When RW took over he was credited, reasonably, with having improved on his predecessor's schedule (introducing CD Masters, dropping Brian Kay's Sunday Morning (and although I didn't like BK's Light Programmes myself, there have been worse programmes)). But then it was all downhill. AD started off very well with some imaginative innovations, and in 'R3 terms' I don't think he put a foot wrong until the most recent changes.

The old Total Immersion weekends from the Barbican were very good, but the day after day of Every Note that Wilhelm Jubelklang Composed during his Very Very Long Life were flogging a dead horse.

I can't comment on anything touching television and am not much exercised by how good or bad it is.

[Lat-Literal]

When RW took over he was credited, reasonably, with having improved on his predecessor's schedule (introducing CD Masters, dropping Brian Kay's Sunday Morning (and although I didn't like BK's Light Programmes myself, there have been worse programmes)). But then it was all downhill. AD started off very well with some imaginative innovations, and in 'R3 terms' I don't think he put a foot wrong until the most recent changes.

The old Total Immersion weekends from the Barbican were very good, but the day after day of Every Note that Wilhelm Jubelklang Composed during his Very Very Long Life were flogging a dead horse.

I can't comment on anything touching television and am not much exercised by how good or bad it is.

Interesting comments - thank you.

I think they could do far more on the story angles - the story of Les Six; Boulanger and the French Music School for Americans; the interactions between Copand and some Latin Americans; the breadth of influence of Hindemith and Schoenberg; classical music families - Conus, Tcherepnin, Berkeley, very many others; contemporaries who travelled together; Music and Monarchy (a la Starkey's television programme which was very informative on Parry, Stanford etc up to Walton); why several classical composers took to ragtime; the composers lost to WW1; Warlock's Circle; the influence of celtic culture on English composers; Britten and McPhee in Bali; composers who also wrote prose; the women of the radiophonic workshop........the possible list is endless. Not classical, but I watched a tv programme last week on flamenco music. It wasn't especially well presented but it teased out so many different angles on its history : (the differences between north and south, and influences; distinctions in rhythm and dance; how Franco sold it simplistically to bring in tourists).

[Ein Heldenleben]

Music discussed and analysed, yes.



Hmm. Yes, though I don't think it's inexplicable. R3's schedule is already padded out with presenter in studio with pile of records programmes which are cheap to produce. R4's budget is twice as big as R3's, and although its programmes are more expensive to produce, they do have a great deal of latitude about what it's spent on.

Examples from back in 2007:
Guide price for the R3 post Breakfast music strand, 2 hours, was £1600. Now 3 hours long.
Guide price for the R3 music feature, 45 minutes, £3,000-£5,000. Axed.

That's very interesting - Strikes me as very cheap. What would the cost of a live non BBC orchestra relay be including OB costs - £30 to £40K ?

[DracoM]

The danger is that even if you do do a Les Six COTW sort of thing current BBC formula would be biographical Wiki-stuff then introduce 'tracks'.
What many are saying is that context, analysis are education, while simply playing 'tracks' is not - it's wallpaper. COTW is, on an almost daily basis, as close to that kind of gesture towards 'education' as we are ever likely to get.

On BAL last Saturday, David Owen Norris did more to illuminate a Schubert piece by trusting his audience to stay with him as he worked detailedly - truly technical detail more than I have heard on R3 in years. IMO we need much more regular nuggets kike that.

[french frank]

What many are saying is that context, analysis are education, while simply playing 'tracks' is not - it's wallpaper. COTW is, on an almost daily basis, as close to that kind of gesture towards 'education' as we are ever likely to get.

And when it comes to the 'big' works (I won't say 'great' for fear of interrogation ), 'tracks' are what we get for a lot of the time. I don't really find that very 'educational'.

On BAL last Saturday, David Owen Norris did more to illuminate a Schubert piece by trusting his audience to stay with him as he worked detailedly - truly technical detail more than I have heard on R3 in years.

And I didn't follow everything regarding the key changes, even having tried to identify them beforehand . But if any listeners say that makes them too 'intimidated' to listen, the BBC says, 'Okay, we'll make it easier for you. Drop the technical stuff.'

That's very interesting - Strikes me as very cheap. What would the cost of a live non BBC orchestra relay be including OB costs - £30 to £40K ?

I've no idea really. Probably less, but a full-length drama can cost £20K or so. Put that in the context of Radio 2 having a bigger budget than Radio 3 (and Radio 1's being similar to R3's) and you wonder what it can possibly get spent on - other than big 'talent' payments.

'Talent' refers to presenters and DJs, btw. Orchestras are not 'talent'.

[Lat-Literal]

The danger is that even if you do do a Les Six COTW sort of thing current BBC formula would be biographical Wiki-stuff then introduce 'tracks'.
What many are saying is that context, analysis are education, while simply playing 'tracks' is not - it's wallpaper. COTW is, on an almost daily basis, as close to that kind of gesture towards 'education' as we are ever likely to get.

On BAL last Saturday, David Owen Norris did more to illuminate a Schubert piece by trusting his audience to stay with him as he worked detailedly - truly technical detail more than I have heard on R3 in years. IMO we need much more regular nuggets kike that.

Yes - COTW is the closest to what I am saying. I suppose they (Radio 3) do have a problem in a way in that some will want to know more about the history, the motivation and something of the approach whereas other people will want a lot of technical detail.