Sacred River: Six hours of continuous sacred music Sunday 26 November

[MrGongGong]

Ferneyhoughgeliebte and Mr GG

When you want to explore, experience, or learn MUSIC, of course you cannot do it without playing or hearing the music/the sound. But that is no proof, evidence, or base to say that you/we don’t need language to explore music.

And Ferneyhoughgeliebte, surely learning to play a musical instrument involves learning a set of rules: how to produce the sound required, how to make the sound louder etc.. Exploring what the instrument can do comes long after ‘acquiring’.

Mr GG
How many times have we been here on this Forum? We know perfectly well that our rivers are never going to cross. I think I’ll let the rivers follow their own way. More the merrier, for now

I don't think anyone suggesting that you don't need language
more that it is only one of the "rivers"

Exploring what the instrument does can be the start of learning

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Játékok

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

When you want to explore, experience, or learn MUSIC, of course you cannot do it without playing or hearing the music/the sound. But that is no proof, evidence, or base to say that you/we don’t need language to explore music.

No - and as we are "talking" in language on a medium that does not readily accommodate nuanced sound, I don't think that we can "prove" this. Hans Keller made analyses of Classical works that dispensed entirely with words - everything was communicated by Musicians playing fragments from the work under analysis. This is "exploring" without using words - whether the individual listener is imagining a "missing" verbal commentary is another matter. But it is one very powerful example of how at least some people can explore Music without words.

surely learning to play a musical instrument involves learning a set of rules: how to produce the sound required, how to make the sound louder etc.. Exploring what the instrument can do comes long after ‘acquiring’.

Do you mean "beginning to learn to play an instrument"? Angharad Davies or Nicola Benedetti are "learning to play an instrument" in the same way that we all learn throughout life. "Rules" are useful at the start of learning, but the deeper one explores a subject, the more occasions occur where it becomes apparent that many "rules" are merely "conventions" that need to be put to one side in order to explore other aspects of a topic (which have their own "conventions"). It's a continuous process - acquiring skills/techniques/"vocabularies", and then exploring these to make new discoveries and acquire new skills/techniques/"vocabularies". For someone working with sound and Music, not a word need occur - and they might communicate their discoveries to a fellow worker by physical demonstration, rather than spoken or written language. (The recipient of such "lessons" might, of course, be thinking in words to internalize what they're discovering ("Oh! I see - you stick your thumb there, and lift the little finger whilst barely touching the string with the bow and doing a quick glissando" sort-of thing) - but the real information/knowledge doesn't require such an interior monologue in every one.


We've come quite a way from the programme, haven't we! My own problem with this "exploration" wasn't that I needed language to make any successful "discoveries", but that I needed time to reflect on the sounds - to go back to a piece that had already been played to remind myself of the sounds in the context not of the pieces immediately before and afterwards, but of those played an hour later. As a result (and I only listened to about 45minutes in total) I not actively engaged in what was being broadcast - so the very opposite of "exploration"; this was more like being taken around an often familiar town by a cabbie (who I began to suspect was bumping up his fare).

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Depends, I suppose, how the different brains process the information, as well as the nature of the information.

But I'm not sure what 'even you' are exploring in an endless stream which meanders along, changing direction every five minutes

I hadn't read this when I wrote the final paragraph of #122, honest!

[french frank]

I hadn't read this when I wrote the final paragraph of #122, honest!

more like being taken around an often familiar town by a cabbie (whom I began to suspect was bumping up his fare).

That was worth the time spent crafting!

[Serial_Apologist]

I'm still not convinced that that is 'exploring the music': it sounds like meditation, exploring one's inner self, if you like.

Which is presumably in part what sacred music is about, and what many non-believing people such as myself find its attraction. I think we have a few non-believers who sing in church choirs on this forum? Believers might say the music is intended to put one in closer touch with God, but for me God is a metaphor for all the mysterious workings of nature which have (as yet) no verbal explanation, and certainly not when thinking about them interferes with the attention flow elicited by the music. Or not, as the case may be. Verdi's Requiem never did anything for me. Possibly there are various "signifiers" in common in what we think of in these terms: mantra-like repetitions, static harmonies, such as we detect in music predating the eras in which harmonic procedures guided tonal schemes driving an historically acquired sense of narrative directionality. This is all part of an exploration process... which can be elaborated into post-event reportage, face-to-face, online or paper, theoretical treatises etc. appears to be what we're taking about here, and which at the same time turns out to be multi-dimensional in aspect and ramifications!

Perhaps a couple of more fruitful directions for discussion might be: 1) What do people take it to be meant by the term "sacred"; and 2) Either agreeing on that or leaving it to one side, is it ever really possible to "identify" [with] the "sacred" in music from other cultures or past eras in which life is or was experienced and channelled through assumptions and beliefs so different from ours of today?

[BBMmk2]

I didn't listem,as I thought it was a load of drivel!

[MrGongGong]

I didn't listem,as I thought it was a load of drivel!

Have you been studying with "Prof" Says by any chance?

[DracoM]

But the use of such a grand and expansive term as 'explore' with so many connotations gives the unwary the suggestion that something more than just playing the stuff on R3 is about to happen..............
Which it didn't.
i.e. 'explore' is PR bait.

[Quarky]

It's working for me on iPlayer. Taking the plunge with Biber /Podger, followed by Allegri, Bruch etc, etc, and admitting that I was in a spiritual mood to begin with, I found that the music sustained my spritual frame of mind (Bruckner didn't work so well). Which presumably is the programme's intention:

Neil MacGregor introduces a special presenter-less celebration of the spiritual side of life that so many encounter through music, no matter what their faith or tradition

A spiritual experience is surely different from a musical experience. If one is looking for an entire symphony or other musical work, clearly there is a need to retune.

The point about a spiritual experience is that the mind must be cleared of CLUTTER, thoughts, inner emotional feelings, and expectations about what may happen in the near future, particularly expectations about the music broadcast. With a completely open mind, one can "examine" the sequence of sounds presented to the ears, and "observe" the mind's reaction to this - without bothering about who actually composed the music, its style etc.

I believe my point of view has been expressed more eloquently in previous posts.

[oddoneout]

But the use of such a grand and expansive term as 'explore' with so many connotations gives the unwary the suggestion that something more than just playing the stuff on R3 is about to happen..............
Which it didn't.
i.e. 'explore' is PR bait.

In that it was wordless, it was always going to be 'just playing stuff' to a certain extent, but I would tend to agree with the absence of exploration. As mentioned previously I was disappointed by the lack of input from elsewhere in the world, although given that I didn't/couldn't differentiate the various stages supposedly being passed through by reference to the music itself, the full import of such contributions might have been limited. The different soundworld would have been of interest though, and it is possible that my reaction to such sounds would have been in accordance with the intention even without actually knowing.
My expectations were too high I think. I preferred River of Sound, and certainly got more out of it.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Neil MacGregor introduces a special presenter-less celebration of the spiritual side of life that so many encounter through music, no matter what their faith or tradition

Even when they're not having a presenter, they're telling us who it isn't.

[Study Session]

too far. 95% white, anglo-saxon, christian, european,male,(just look at the faces on the playlist) is unimaginative and unnecessary.

I steered clear of it, in part, for the opposite reason - fear that it was some sort of multi-cultural box-ticking exercise, perhaps designed to satisfy an OFCOM requirement. Serving up six hours of unbilled 'suck it and see' radio didn't work for me last time R3 tried it either.

[doversoul1]

...this is a seamless "slow radio" flow…
A bit after a bit every (approx.) four minutes with no space for contemplation or appreciation? More like an excellent example of Fast radio.


... in carefully curated vignettes, opening up the intimate and personal world of belief.
It makes me wonder who their (whoever thought of the programme) intended audience was.

[Quarky]

Even when they're not having a presenter, they're telling us who it isn't.

Well EA, I'm just reporting my reaction to the programme, as sensibly as I can manage.

Clearly music has the power to push the mind in various directions, but to push it in a spritual direction, it is necessary to start with an open mind free of clutter, in my view.

I'm not sure that extracts from other musical genres would have helped greatly. But may be it's arguable that for a series of short extracts from Classical works, the series viewed overall is no longer "Classical Music".

[ardcarp]

I missed the Sacred River (being otherwise occupied in France) but will try to LA in bits...which isn't the point, I suppose. Briefly scanning the posts, it seems the idea is not welcomed by many. I rather like the 'innocent ear' thing (if that's what it is) but I'll reserve judgement.