Too much Jazz!

[french frank]

Yes, but the OP has a point; mixing genres in the same programme doesn't work. It hacks off the classical lovers and smacks of tokenism to jazz fans.

And what self respecting jazz aficionado is up at 7am anyway?

Congrats on getting the approval of the OP! I'll concede that point (I hate it too and think it's otiose tokenism) but, as the post proceeded, it got a bit lost in the rest of the OTT diatribe about 'too much jazz' which was what I chose to respond to. It's not always a good idea to overstate one's case.

"and this year's Proms have gone overboard with regard to jazz and popular music. You wouldn't find Mozart or Beethoven on Radio 1 or 2 so is it just Radio 3 trying to be "hip" yet again? "

I had a point too about Radio 3 not being just a classical music station. The televised Proms are the choice of higher-up brass than the controller of Radio 3 who would love to see more classical music on the mainstream services. This is a point made in the FoR3 submission to Ofcom, a copy of which found its way on to the Director General's desk (he, I'm given to understand, has 'noted' the comments …).

The sad reality is that services which are deemed to cater for large audiences go for the populist lighter music (of whatever sort). This is nothing new and can't be laid at Radio 3's door.

[eighthobstruction]

Well, yours is the only posting that is a true reply, as opposed to someone telling me I don't know what i'm talking about
or that I confuse Pop with Popular, etc.etc.etc. So thanks..........I know we're probably in the minority here!

....I love a bit of a wind up stupidity (correct RB)....it's all part of the serendipity of R3forum ....spot the wind up....spot the axe to grind....spot the journalist....spot kleins c....etc....and of course spot the pedant...."Where's Wally".... "Fish tomorrow"....

[BBMmk2]

I love Jazz and Rock music as well as classical and it is a fine art to balance all these genres. I think BBCC does a great job. I also love, as you might have guessed, brass bands and concert bands too. So be good to have those included as well. I doubt that very much.

[Hornspieler]

I love Jazz and Rock music as well as classical and it is a fine art to balance all these genres. I think BBCC does a great job. I also love, as you might have guessed, brass bands and concert bands too. So be good to have those included as well. I doubt that very much.

When I joined the BBC in Bristol, it was as Manager of the BBC Training Orchestra.
This orchestra was formed in the 1960s by agreement with the Musicians Union as part of the "Needle Time" agreement that required more musicians to be employed by the Corporation in order to allow the Disk Jockies of Radio One of Radio 1 to continue their activities.

"Keep Music Live!" was the MU's slogan and the Training Orchestra was formed to employ former students who had failed to gain employment upon leaving their music colleges. The rules were that this orchestra would be allowed to give one broadcast every week and one Public Performance (also relayed live) per month.

An idea that was never going to work and , by the time that I was appointed to manage these "Apprentice" players, the orchestra had sunk to chamber music size and had been laughingly renamed by BBC Bristol's Head of Music as "The Academy of the BBC"

Neville Mariner's ASMF had nothing to fear from this band of apprentices.


Nor was my task in overseeing this "enterprise" a full time job, so I was also sometimes tasked to undertake the role of Program Producer, not only for the orchestra's broadcasts and concerts, but also The Dartington Quartet and The Bournemouth Symphony and the Bournemouth Sinfonietta.

In 1973, when I joined the Beeb, I was told that the continued existense of the training orchestra was guaranteed for the next five years (until 1978, when the agreement would be reviewed but the BBC renagued on their promise and terminated the orchestra a year early in 1973.

So it was rather ironic to recall that the last broadcast that I had to oversee before leaving the BBCs employment was by The Stanshaw Band - a very good brass band from Stanshaw, just a few miles North of Bristol.

Does this talented group of music makers still exist?

Well, not on the BBC wavelengths.

Nor all other brass bands, military bands. Salvation Army - all of whom have produced players who have graced the
major symphony orchestras of this country

The sad news of the death of my former friend and colleague Gordon Langford sums up the situation.

Auntie is simply not interested. Too busy commissioning First (and last) performances of "New" music, composed by people who don't even know how to fill a bar with rests in the correct order.

Rant over. How I would like to hear Isobel Bailee singing Rutland Boughton's ""Fairies" or Wolf-Ferrari's Intermezzo from "Jewels of the Madonna"

HS

[Richard Barrett]

composed by people who don't even know how to fill a bar with rests in the correct order

You just can't stop yourself, can you.

[Bryn]

... Too busy commissioning First (and last) performances of "New" music, composed by people who don't even know how to fill a bar with rests in the correct order. ...

Unlike most brass (including French horn) players of my acquaintance), who will eagerly and efficiently fill a bar, and empty it, too.

Ah The Lordly Ones, excellent Radio 2 fare.

[Hornspieler]

Unlike most brass (including French horn) players of my acquaintance), who will eagerly and efficiently fill a bar, and empty it, too.

HS

[french frank]

How I would like to hear Isobel Bailee singing Rutland Boughton's ""Fairies" or Wolf-Ferrari's Intermezzo from "Jewels of the Madonna"

A campaign to get Radio 2 to bring back its light music programming might be useful, then. They have taken a view that younger people brought up on contemporary popular music will never develop an interest in such music.

"Auntie" is not at all interested in 'commissioning First (and last) performances of "New" music, composed by people who don't even know how to fill a bar with rests in the correct order'; but fortunately Radio 3 is.

These two specific types of music have something broadly in common: they don't appeal [E&OE] to people (either too young or too old) not brought up to appreciate them.

[MrGongGong]

So I gave you facts about the dirth of popular Light Music on BBC Radio..

I know you did


but this

Pop music, the Charts, boybands are destroying the appreciation of our young of [I]Good[/I/] music - whether it be by orchestra, brass band or cinema organ.

Is an opinion

as is this (IMV)

Please let us not confuse Jazz or Popular Music with Pop Music.

I'm not sure whether musicologists would agree on your definition of "Popular Music"

And yes I know about the BBC Concert Orchestra (I made a piece with them a few years ago)

[french frank]

but this

Pop music, the Charts, boybands are destroying the appreciation of our young of [I]Good[/I/] music - whether it be by orchestra, brass band or cinema organ.

Is an opinion

It is - and actually in one sense I agree with it. Not because in some 'musical' sense it literally destroys an ability to appreciate other musics, but because there is so much of it, everywhere, that for a majority it is from an early age the only music of which they have any extensive knowledge; they identify with it; they bond with their peers on the subject and it becomes part of their lifestyle (attending summer festivals together &c). They identify classical music, for example, as 'old people's music'.

It's where I think the BBC/Proms could do more (not less!!!) to adjust the balance. But it depends whether you believe that, over time, and as they get older, the 'normal' percentage naturally finds - and comes to appreciate - minority musics. If you think that, you won't see that any self-styled 'remedial action' is needed

[MrGongGong]

It is - and actually in one sense I agree with it. Not because in some 'musical' sense it literally destroys an ability to appreciate other musics, but because there is so much of it, everywhere, that for a majority it is from an early age the only music of which they have any extensive knowledge; they identify with it; they bond with their peers on the subject and it becomes part of their lifestyle (attending summer festivals together &c). They identify classical music, for example, as 'old people's music'.

I know what you are getting at
But my experience is that young people are more open to a wider variety of musics that in the past.

They identify classical music, for example, as 'old people's music'.

Maybe they have been reading some of the things on this thread?

[french frank]

But my experience is […]

Every individual's experience is limited

Maybe they have been reading some of the things on this thread?

And ignoring other things on this thread? Yes, people tend to read selectively too - picking up particularly on their own prejudices and ignoring the counter evidence.

[BBMmk2]

#19 Hiya Hornspieler, many thanks for your post. Unfortunately, not. The band folded some years ago now. Pity. it was a damn fine outfit.

[teamsaint]

It is - and actually in one sense I agree with it. Not because in some 'musical' sense it literally destroys an ability to appreciate other musics, but because there is so much of it, everywhere, that for a majority it is from an early age the only music of which they have any extensive knowledge; they identify with it; they bond with their peers on the subject and it becomes part of their lifestyle (attending summer festivals together &c). They identify classical music, for example, as 'old people's music'.

It's where I think the BBC/Proms could do more (not less!!!) to adjust the balance. But it depends whether you believe that, over time, and as they get older, the 'normal' percentage naturally finds - and comes to appreciate - minority musics. If you think that, you won't see that any self-styled 'remedial action' is needed

Young people,like the rest of us,have much easier access to a vastly wider range of musics, including an endless variety of Classical music, than anybody did , even twenty years ago.

One consequence of of this is that the predominance of music in the top 40 has been pretty thoroughly undermined, and that young people easily find the music that currently interests them, rather than what gets on the playlists, or for the more adventurous,what got played late night on R1 or anytime on R3.
In terms of an individual discovering,or being confronted with music that is very different to what they currently listen to , this is something of a two edged sword.Unfortunately for core rep classical, the fact is that there is so much more out there to find,that the path from pop to rock to classical or Jazz, just as one example,is now replaced by whole network of almost never ending paths, that may never really get close to the classical garden. And of course there is the opportunity to delve ever deeper ,almost endlessly, into a specific genre,which is pretty unhelpful in terms of developing ones tastes more widely.

[MrGongGong]

And ignoring other things on this thread? Yes, people tend to read selectively too - picking up particularly on their own prejudices and ignoring the counter evidence.

Yes we all do