Heidenröslein

[gurnemanz]

Good to hear Schubert's famous Heidenröslein on Breakfast this morning. It is a very pretty song and was described by the presenter as "delightful", which musically, of course it is, but you can't get away from the fact that it is depicting a rape. The last verse:

Und der wilde Knabe brach
's Röslein auf der Heiden;
Röslein wehrte sich und stach,
Half ihm doch kein Weh und Ach,
Mußt es eben leiden.

Not all translations get the full force of the original. John Reed's is one of the best:

And the rough boy plucked the little rose in the heather The rose pricked in self-defence. But her oh's and ah's were all in vain. She had to put up with it after all.

Here's mine, even nearer the knuckle:

On some heathland the boy lost control and broke the young rose who tried to defend herself and fought back, but her screaming was of no use. She just had to let it happen.

[Roslynmuse]

Thank you for this, Gurnemanz - I was discussing this with a singer a couple of months back and we wondered at the number of 'translations' that completely alter the sense of the text. It's pretty shocking stuff. Do you think Schubert was aware when he set it in such a simple way? Or that the gap between delightful music and unpleasant meaning is deliberate? I wonder what prompted Goethe to write the poem.

Another Lied that I have become very uncomfortable with is Beethoven's Der Kuss, which perpetuates the 'no means yes' myth.

[gurnemanz]

Thanks for pointing to Der Kuss which I've just listened to. I see your point but "No means yes" might be a bit of innocent foreplay here. The scream only came long after the initial kiss. "Sie schrie, Doch lange hinterher" seems to point to a cry of pleasure after she has been won over despite initial resistance ("Gegenwehr").

I'm pretty sure this is the way Schubert was interpreting Heidenröslein. The setting seems to wish to convey light-headed wooing. I'm not sure Schubert was into irony.

[doversoul1]

I guess in those days, how a man got what he wanted was all that mattered. Women’s suffering wasn’t something that the world was bothered about, unless she was high-born. Then, the man could have been in trouble. Otherwise, it was all fun. Achievement, even.

Appreciating Art can be quite complicated if we think about it.

[vinteuil]

... thank you - (I suppose... ) - for this. I had not been aware of the real meaning of the text, altho' of course I had 'listened' to this piece many times.

My great regret in life is that I never acquired German as a language. At sixty four I am hesitant at my strength/will-power or belief in my own competence at sufficiently acquiring a new language. But if I had my life again it is certain that early learning of German wd be a priority...

[oddoneout]

.My great regret in life is that I never acquired German as a language. At sixty four I am hesitant at my strength/will-power or belief in my own competence at sufficiently acquiring a new language. But if I had my life again it is certain that early learning of German wd be a priority...

Well it would certainly be a good brain work out project - German doesn't lend itself very well to just throwing words together, as my daughter discovered when she opted for German rather than Spanish as a potential second language at GCSE. The syllabus seemed to be a tourist level 'Get by in German' and did nothing to provide her with the framework to construct or decode a sentence, let alone write anything of use or understand text. I was so thoroughly(and mind numbingly tediously) taught German by a German woman that I was able to help out 26 years later with daughter's difficulties, and now,even after 45 years usable bits can still surface. Did make learning basic Dutch a doddle though...
With regard to the Schubert I remember my mother making some comment about 'lovely tune, pity about the words' which at the time I thought was to do with her general dislike of the German language, but then some years later when when I was learning it my singing teacher mentioned the 'ambiguity'.

[gradus]

Yet more disillusion, until now I'd been happy with the general idea that it was about a rose growing on a heath. Must listen to words and not just the sound of the voice.

[french frank]

Yet more disillusion, until now I'd been happy with the general idea that it was about a rose growing on a heath. Must listen to words and not just the sound of the voice.

Rather like some English nursery rhymes, these verses (by Goethe in this case) are not for children then - though it seems to be a favourite of children's choirs.

Either people are being very coy or no one seems to have noticed the violent overtones. One is probably justified in reading it as merely sentimental poetry to match Goethe's Die Leiden des jungen Werthers. As it suits …

[Richard Barrett]

Good to hear Schubert's famous Heidenröslein on Breakfast this morning. It is a very pretty song and was described by the presenter as "delightful", which musically, of course it is, but you can't get away from the fact that it is depicting a rape.

We could widen this discussion to include many instances in the "classical" repertoire of sung texts which if set to music nowadays would be regarded as unacceptable... one that springs to mind is Luther's "Erhalt uns, Herr, bei deinem Wort, / und steur' des Papsts und Türken Mord / die Jesum Christum, deinen Sohn / stürzen wollen von seinem Thron" set by JS Bach in BWV126. Some people advocate using an alternate text for these lines, which seems inappropriate to me.

[underthecountertenor]

We could widen this discussion to include many instances in the "classical" repertoire of sung texts which if set to music nowadays would be regarded as unacceptable... one that springs to mind is Luther's "Erhalt uns, Herr, bei deinem Wort, / und steur' des Papsts und Türken Mord / die Jesum Christum, deinen Sohn / stürzen wollen von seinem Thron" set by JS Bach in BWV126. Some people advocate using an alternate text for these lines, which seems inappropriate to me.

I understand that the last movement of Richard Rodney Bennett's 'Nonsense' (1979), a setting of Melvyn Peake's 'The Dwarf of Battersea', gave rise to some calls for a degree of bowdlerisation when recently performed by a North London choir.

[CallMePaul]

[QUOTE=french frank;575375] it seems to be a favourite of children's choirs.

I remember singing an English version of this at primary school, aged about 10. As I remember them, the words we sang to the third verse (lines 3-4) were "Rose stung sharply as he pulled/ Wounding both together". This is obviously a bowdlerised version. I was not aware of the provenance of the song until many years later when I first heard the original version. Like most 10-year olds at the time I would not have understood any sexual connotations even if we had sung a literal translation.