End in sight for Classical Collection?

[Suffolkcoastal]

It has definitely been an increasing trend of the last couple of years to 'relegate' anything that is challenging until at least the occasional In-Tune at the earliest. You even had the absolutely ridiculous case on Wednesday's recital from Cardiff of poor Donald MacLeod being obliged to assure listeners that the 10 minute Song of the Wood Dove by Schoenberg was safe to listen too and wouldn't be too demanding for listeners! Late Junction often seems to home to anything considered too 'difficult' these days, leaving the day-time schedule it seems to Waltzes, Polkas, Furiants and Polonaises. I noted that it took until this week before anything by Elliott Carter was broadcast this year (again it was Late Junction).

[DracoM]

Yep, I heard that and was disgusted by the smug patrosiing. But, boy, did it ever make crystal clear in letters of neon exactly who is now thw target audience of CC.

John Suchet, eat your heart out.

[ahinton]

James Jolly seems to have an extraordinarily patronising view of his audience. A few weeks ago, I noted that he wouldn't dream of playing us any Elliott Carter since "at this time in the morning" (11:30, I think) it would be too scary, and this morning in his preface to Webern's Im Sommerwind we were treated to some rigmarole about how we shouldn't immediately rush out to do our shopping since this wasn't the scary Webern but the (presumably) family-friendly one who hadn't met Schoenberg yet. After the piece, he added some gnomic comment about the different path that would have been taken by 20th C music had they not met - "for better or worse" I think he said. The implication was obscure but possibly he thinks the world would have been a much better place if Webern had been shot in 1905 instead of 1945.

I hope that the first of these absurd, tasteless and unnecessary remarks hasn't found its way to Elliott Carter himself (although I very much doubt that it has); in any case, perhaps someone should play some of Carter's earlier music to Jolly James as it would appear that he knows none of it. The same degree of contempt is all that the other remarks about Webern deserve and they are particularly out of place on BBC Radio 3.

[Suffolkcoastal]

I think Mr Jolly should play Carter's beautiful song Voyage for example a bet he wouldn't have a clue who the composer was. I am surprised about Donald MacLeod though, I thought he would have resisted having to make the comments he did on Schoenberg from Cardiff on Wednesday, obviously RW's Iron Fist now has total control.

[longinus]

But why don't you email your comment, perhaps as constructively expressed as you can manage , to the programme? A reply might be interesting.

Done. Only slightly more constructive, I'm afraid :-)

[DracoM]

To coin a phrase used by a controversial BBC editor: listeners who complain are 'the wrong kind of listener'. That's you, longinus. Daring to challenge CC policy / tone / style. Tut tut! Have your lines ready by tomorrow morning on Mr Jolly's desk, please.

[Panjandrum]

You even had the absolutely ridiculous case on Wednesday's recital from Cardiff of poor Donald MacLeod being obliged to assure listeners that the 10 minute Song of the Wood Dove by Schoenberg was safe to listen too and wouldn't be too demanding for listeners.

I'm not so sure I agree about "poor" Donald MacLeod. It seems to me that Cowan, MacLeod et al have been cut too much slack here. From the COTWs I've caught lately DM appears to be an enthusiastic advocate of the populist approach, referring to certain works as "no scrapes or screeches there"; or to take one example, he all but accused anyone who wrote off the 1812 overture as musical snobs, despite Tchaikovsky's own much-quoted disparagement of the piece as a work of jobbery. In fact, he seems to have taken it as axiomatic that all good music should have hummable tunes. Don't hold out hope for much in the way of 20th/21st century composers featuring on his watch in the near future.

[longinus]

Well, it's now over a week since my email to the programme - apart from an (automatic) acknowledgment, I've had no reply. So presumably my point is a) unarguably correct, or b) not relevant to anything the presenters/producer want to put across. Not that those two are mutually exclusive, of course.

[mercia]

too difficult to complain to the BBC?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13949966

[cavatina]

Well, it's now over a week since my email to the programme - apart from an (automatic) acknowledgment, I've had no reply. So presumably my point is a) unarguably correct, or b) not relevant to anything the presenters/producer want to put across. Not that those two are mutually exclusive, of course.

Good grief! With a letter like that, what kind of reply were you hoping for!? Seriously!

Here, I took a crack at writing a detailed, personalized response for you...see if imagining this came from the station makes you feel any better:

******

Dear Mr. Longinus:

I'm very sorry you find James Jolly to be "extraordinarily patronising". I can assure you Mr. Jolly would never dream of intentionally patronising anyone, much less the well-informed and reasonable listeners who mean so very much to him. His remarks were just a bit of harmless humor to lighten the atmosphere on a dreary June morning, nothing more. Here at Radio 3, there's truly something for everybody-- and I'm sure you'll be able to find many other instances of our playing Webern and and Elliott Carter in the morning if only you pore over our old playlists diligently enough. Were you aware that you can access archived copies of the Radio 3 website all the way back to 1998?

http://wayback.archive.org/web/*/www.bbc.co.uk/radio3

I'm sure this link will provide you many hours of fascinating, spirited discussion with all my dear friends over on the Friends of Radio 3 message board. And while you're at it, I do hope you'll be able to make it to the Proms UK premiere of Elliott Carter's Flute Concerto on July 28th:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/whats-on/2011/july-28/21

And what's sure to be an electrifying performance of Webern's Passacaglia with Zubin Mehta on September 1st:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/whats-on/2011/september-01/73

In fact, if you can make it to the Royal Albert Hall, I'd be delighted if you'd come speak with me out on the steps--I'm always around!-- and I'll be absolutely thrilled to listen to all of your concerns in person for as long as it takes you to get them out of your system.

Once again, I'm very sorry you weren't pleased with James Jolly's manner. On behalf of the station, please allow me to offer you our humble apologies. You might take comfort in something your namesake Dionysius Longinus once said: "In great attempts, it is glorious even to fail"-- and here at Radio 3, we're trying as hard as we can.

Most respectfully yours,
Cavatina.

******

Better now?

[barber olly]

Good grief! With a letter like that, what kind of reply were you hoping for!? Seriously!


...and here at Radio 3, we're trying as hard as we can.

And in the words of the ubiquitous Headmaster 'must try harder'.

Actually, I made an early contribution but not checked it lately. Without trawling through it all has any decision yet been made regarding the morning slot - are we in for a return to Third Programme vintage Radio 3 or are we heading further down the CFM2 road?

[french frank]

Back in the real world:

I think that making reasonable points reasonably is worth doing. No, you may not get a reply (if you're rude you probably won't) but it will go to the producer and may get fed back indirectly to a presenter.

In any case, it does seem to me that if you plant the idea in the minds of a musically unsophisticated audience that Webern is 'scary' and to be avoided, it isn't very educational. It might be more reassuring to say that all Webern's works are very short (and isn't Im Sommerwind, far from being 'short' as it was described, actually about the longest piece he wrote?)

[french frank]

Actually, I made an early contribution but not checked it lately. Without trawling through it all has any decision yet been made regarding the morning slot - are we in for a return to Third Programme vintage Radio 3 or are we heading further down the CFM2 road?

We know nothing. According to the commissioning schedule, the contract will have been settled with the chosen independent company and the brief will be as described: i.e. along the lines of Classical Collection but perhaps not quite as scholarly ...

[cavatina]

In any case, it does seem to me that if you plant the idea in the minds of a musically unsophisticated audience that Webern is 'scary' and to be avoided, it isn't very educational. )

I agree-- but if they immediately follow it up with a likable Webern piece and everyone who was previously prejudiced sees there's nothing to be afraid of, what difference does it make? In fact, if you'd never heard of Webern at all and were told he was considered formidable, you might even feel a little proud that you "got it".

I still don't know how you expect the station to respond when you heap insults on the presenters over trivialities. "some messageboarder thought you were patronising" simply isn't very helpful.

[french frank]

I still don't know how you expect the station to respond

I think I stated that in the words, quote :"No, you may not get a reply"...

when you heap insults

... especially, quote, "if you're rude".