Regional accents- the last straw.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Talking of whom his narration of Peter and the Wolf is in my recently acquired Markevitch ICON box - I'll have a listen to his dulcets!

I love his pronunciation of "Clarionet" - a real sense (and piece) of history.

[vinteuil]

Just a suggestion; how about the announcers just speaking latin while dress in wing collar and top hat !!! with of course the female presenters only wearing a Norman Hartnell evening gown even for the morning programme. Personally I thought ethnic cleansing would have been best left to johnny foreigner. I don't suppose I could interest any of you lot in membership of the Wilfred Pickles appreciation society !!

... ah, but will Miss Worling-Worth have passed the entry examination? Only candidates who have shewn at least Matriculation competence will be permitted access to the air-waves to hear what will will be on offer from the 'Third Programme', as we call it.

[MrGongGong]

and so was Robert Robinson, a fellow Liverpudlian.

Who found it impossible to say the word Margarine

[jean]

I'm not quite sure how he did pronounce it, but if it wasn't what you expected to hear, I'm prepared to bet that had more to do with his awareness of the word's origins than with any trace of his native accent.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Who found it impossible to say the word Margarine

Hard "G" or soft (or should that be "spreadable")?

Michael Barrett (of Nationwide fame) pronounces/d it with a hard G.

(Personally, I find margarine impossible to swallow!)

[vinteuil]

"OED (1905 ) gives as the pronunciation only (mā·ɹgărīn), with /-g-/ ; this pronunciation, which became rare in the second half of the 20th cent., probably underlies the nickname Maggie Ann (see maggie n. 4). OED. (1902 ), however, s.v. Oleomargarine, notes that the latter is ‘Often mispronounced (-mā·ɹdʒərīn), as if spelt -margerine’ (i.e. with /-dʒ-/ ). The latter pronunciation is recorded in 1913 (with subordinate status) by H. Michaelis & D. Jones Phonetic Dict. Eng. Lang.; the shortened form marge, in which -ge also implies pronunciation with /-dʒ-/ , is attested within ten years of this (see 1922 at marge n.2). The shift of stress, outside North American English, from the first to the final syllable is also first evidenced in the 1913 source."

... the etymology provided by wiki is confusing, but clearly a hard g in either case wd be required -

"Margarine originated with the discovery by French chemist Michel Eugène Chevreul in 1813 of margaric acid (itself named after the pearly deposits of the fatty acid from Greek μαργαρίτης or μάργαρον (margaritēs / márgaron), meaning pearl-oyster or pearl,[8] or μαργαρίς (margarís), meaning palm-tree, hence the relevance to palmitic acid). Scientists at the time regarded margaric acid, like oleic acid and stearic acid, as one of the three fatty acids which, in combination, formed most animal fats. In 1853, the German structural chemist Wilhelm Heinrich Heintz analyzed margaric acid as simply a combination of stearic acid and the previously unknown palmitic acid."

... in the end a poor succedaneum for what I wd normally pronounce as : /ˈbʌtə(r)/

[jean]

N.E.D. (1905) gives as the pronunciation only (mā·ɹgărīn), with /-ɡ-/ ; this pronunciation, which became rare in the second half of the 20th cent., probably underlies the nickname Maggie Ann (see maggie n. 4). N.E.D. (1902), however, s.v. Oleomargarine, notes that the latter is ‘Often mispronounced (-mā·ɹdʒərīn), as if spelt -margerine ’ (i.e. with /-dʒ-/ ). The latter pronunciation is recorded in 1913 (with subordinate status) by H. Michaelis & D. Jones Phonetic Dict. Eng. Lang.; the shortened form marge , in which -ge also implies pronunciation with /-dʒ-/ , is attested within ten years of this (see 1922 at marge n.2). The shift of stress, outside North American English, from the first to the final syllable is also first evidenced in the 1913 source.

The French so named it from

< ancient Greek μαργαρ- (in μαργαρίτης margarite n.1)...The substance was so called on account of its having the appearance of mother-of-pearl.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Talking of whom his narration of Peter and the Wolf is in my recently acquired Markevitch ICON box - I'll have a listen to his dulcets!

Sir John Gielgud pronounces it the same way on his recording of P&TW. Surely he should have known better.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The shift of stress, outside North American English, from the first to the final syllable is also first evidenced in the 1913 source.

I thought the 1st & 3rd syllables were given balanced stresses, like a 6/8 bar: crotchet - quaver - dotted quaver.

[vinteuil]

I thought the 1st & 3rd syllables were given balanced stresses, like a 6/8 bar: crotchet - quaver - dotted quaver.

... more, I think, that it has moved from being a dactyl -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dactyl_(poetry)

to being an anapaest -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anapaest

I don't hear it as a cretic -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretic

[MrGongGong]

I'm not quite sure how he did pronounce it, but if it wasn't what you expected to hear, I'm prepared to bet that had more to do with his awareness of the word's origins than with any trace of his native accent.

Is there anyone else who so epitomises the phoneyness of RP?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

. . . the phoneyness of RP?

In what way is it phoney?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

... more, I think, that it has moved from being a dactyl -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dactyl_(poetry)

to being an anapaest -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anapaest

I don't hear it as a cretic -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretic

Interesting stuff.

[Serial_Apologist]

In what way is it phoney?

Because it's become a class as opposed to a local or regional accent, maybe? - overruling localised differences of accent and dialect?

[jean]

Or is it only 'phoney' if you weren't born to it, and can (as was the case with Alpie's unfortunate teacher) get found out?

I wasn't sure if RR's pronunciation of margarine was supposed to be part of the finding-out process.