Late-evening pleasures on Radio 3

[LMcD]

I think Grace Williams' second symphony is the finest piece of music written by a woman.

There are some pretty good tracks on Carole King's 'Tapestry'.

[smittims]

So I have heard, but is 'pretty good' the same as 'finest'? I don't think TESCO would agree .

[Sir Velo]

Given more of Hildegard's compositions survive than any other 12th century composer I find it hard to believe the claim that she was merely following tradition to be anything more than rhetorical rodomontade. Whatever you may think of her music she is surely one of music's true originals. Her compositions are characterised by virtues conspicuously absent from most of her contemporaries: extended, arch like florid melody, a wide range of poetic imagery, a clear musical and poetic personality.

[LMcD]

Given more of Hildegard's compositions survive than any other 12th century composer I find it hard to believe the claim that she was merely following tradition to be anything more than rhetorical rodomontade. Whatever you may think of her music she is surely one of music's true originals. Her compositions are characterised by virtues conspicuously absent from most of her contemporaries: extended, arch like florid melody, a wide range of poetic imagery, a clear musical and poetic personality.

Sadly unavailable in the UK (unless anybody knows a way round this prohibition) is the 1994 BBC dramatized documentary in which Hildegard was played by Patricia Routledge - not as strange a choice as might at first appear, as she can sing a bit, worships regularly at Chichester Cathedral, and has been awarded honorary membership of the Royal Academy of Music.

[AuntDaisy]

Sadly unavailable in the UK (unless anybody knows a way round this prohibition) is the 1994 BBC dramatized documentary in which Hildegard was played by Patricia Routledge (who can sing a bit and worships regularly ay Chichester Cathedral).

Available on Amazon (or even pricier this version for faster, non-US delivery) & NTSC...

Or on YouTube (low-res video).

[LMcD]

Available on Amazon (or even pricier this version for faster, non-US delivery) & NTSC...

Or on YouTube (low-res video).

Thank you - I've bookmarked the YouTube recording.

[french frank]

Given more of Hildegard's compositions survive than any other 12th century composer I find it hard to believe the claim that she was merely following tradition ...

On the other hand, if you don't have as much interest in medieval/early music as in 'classical' - broad sense - or contemporary music you may be less motivated to delve more deeply. I can only speak from my personal point of view and taste (both of limited general interest), but if I compare, say, jazz and Radio 3u, I'm not motivated to explore either from what I hear of the 'noise'. But with jazz I can appreciate the way it's discussed by enthusiasts and that for them there are degrees of quality, especially in performance.

But when I hear enthusiasts for R 3u (or some other musical 'presentations' I won't mention ) discussing them, I hear nothing but 'I enjoy it', 'It really helps me relax', 'It's ideal late-night listening for me'. My opinion of what I hear in such programming is that it's 'ultraprocessed', it's flavour enhancers, it's marketing to encourage listening. It's not the music itself - or any bit of it - which with different presentation (full-length pieces, more varied than the gentle, relaxing) I would ordinarily enjoy. On jazz as music, I don't know what I'm talking about; on classical music generally, even I know enough to recognise soulless mass-production. So the point I'm making - if you're still with me - is that subjective value judgements are limited to the judge not to the judged. They have to be set against the judgement of knowledgeable enthusiasts.

[smittims]

I remain suspicious about Hildegard, and wonder if she is much more than an anachronistic wish-fulfilment invention of modern feminism.

What I hear is little more than plainchant , with embellishments which sound to me as if they've been added by recent editors and performers . To my ears it's what they wish she'd written.

[french frank]

I remain suspicious about Hildegard, and wonder if she is much more than an anachronistic wish-fulfilment invention of modern feminism.

'Feminism' seems to be a hobby-horse of yours. You do mention it rather often. Your 'suspicion' is not fact but it is, on the other hand, quite revealing

[smittims]

Ah, well, I think you only think I mention it rather often because you're looking for it!

I do mention it occasionally because it affects so many things these days that one cannot escape it, but in fact I don't mention it more than lots of other things. I wouldn't mention it at all if it weren't pushed in my face so often, and I feel that a lot of what is said is biased, untrue and misleading I ought to challenge it (or 'call it out' as they say) . Maybe if I ignore it it will go away.

[LMcD]

I remain suspicious about Hildegard, and wonder if she is much more than an anachronistic wish-fulfilment invention of modern feminism.

What I hear is little more than plainchant , with embellishments which sound to me as if they've been added by recent editors and performers . To my ears it's what they wish she'd written.

I don't feel qualified to contribute to this discussion - I'm merely a feather on the breath of God (to coin a phrase).

[Ein Heldenleben]

Ah, well, I think you only think I mention it rather often because you're looking for it!

I do mention it occasionally because it affects so many things these days that one cannot escape it, but in fact I don't mention it more than lots of other things. I wouldn't mention it at all if it weren't pushed in my face so often, and I feel that a lot of what is said is biased, untrue and misleading I ought to challenge it (or 'call it out' as they say) . Maybe if I ignore it it will go away.

It is the case that there is some over estimation of composers for reasons other than their intrinsic quality - there always has been . Unfortunately (or rather fortunately )I don’t think H of B is a good example of this. She was also something of a universal genius - credited with the introduction of a scientific approach to natural history to Germany amongst many other things. Depending on when you define the start of the Renaissance she was to all intents and purposes a Renaissance woman. I don’t think her popularity has anything to do with feminism - it speaks powerfully to people today - a remarkable achievement for a mediaeval musician.,

[smittims]

I think it speaks to people today because it's been presented cleverly as the work of a feisty, empowered modern woman transplanted into the Middle Ages, in the same waythat Marain Marais' music , after being ignored for centuries, suddenly spoke to people today when it was featured in a popular film: it's the musical Girl with Pearl Earring.

I was listening this morning on TTN to Maciej Radziwill's Divertimento in D. Like the other composers mentioned above, he's an example of hundreds, perhaps thousands of intelligent people who learnt to write an acceptable and pleasant piece of music, but he's not so highly praised as Jaquet and Strozzi because there was no extra-musical reason for promoting him to 'great composer' status'.


By contrast, I also listened to what is perhaps Beethoven's least work ,the Music for a Ritterballett, WoO 1. Even here what is clear is the ability to write vital memorable music . That's the difference for me.

[french frank]

Ah, well, I think you only think I mention it rather often because you're looking for it!

Or because I use the search facility to see who uses particular words more than anyone else

[Ein Heldenleben]

I think it speaks to people today because it's been presented cleverly as the work of a feisty, empowered modern woman transplanted into the Middle Ages, in the same waythat Marain Marais' music , after being ignored for centuries, suddenly spoke to people today when it was featured in a popular film: it's the musical Girl with Pearl Earring.

I was listening this morning on TTN to Maciej Radziwill's Divertimento in D. Like the other composers mentioned above, he's an example of hundreds, perhaps thousands of intelligent people who learnt to write an acceptable and pleasant piece of music, but he's not so highly praised as Jaquet and Strozzi because there was no extra-musical reason for promoting him to 'great composer' status'.


By contrast, I also listened to what is perhaps Beethoven's least work ,the Music for a Ritterballett, WoO 1. Even here what is clear is the ability to write vital memorable music . That's the difference for me.

Actually Hildegard has been somewhat criticised by feminists for her meek acceptance of the inferiority of women. She was not feisty - just formidably intelligent , diligent and devout in a way we cannot begin to comprehend . She should however be a hero to those feminists - devoting her life to the patient study of the curative properties of plants and healing as well a cataloguer, An absolutely remarkable woman - she also is believed to have introduced hops into brewing - extending the shelf life of beer . So a hero to men as well I guess.
I forgot…she’s also a Saint. Something even Beethoven never managed.