Classical Live is changing its tune

[Roger Webb]

Wherever La Mer was composed, I wonder if anyone would associate it with the sea if they hadn't been told, and if Debussy hadn't given it maritime titles. Without them, we have, surely, a symphonie francaise : in three movements, in cyclic form ,and with a slow introduction . Voila!

You're right!.....and I've often thought this about other works. One to listen to which is obviously influenced by the Debussy...and actually written at sea is 'Journal de bord' (Ship's Log) by Jean Cras, do you know it - it's very impressive for a self-taught musician (he was a naval officer all his adult life, but did a short course in orchestration with Henri Duparc). If in doubt of his abilities try his String Trio, a very impressive work in this difficult genre.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Debussy's 'La Mer' was completed in full score and published by Durand on 5th March 1905, the copyright was issued to protect the printed parts which Debussy took to Eastbourne in July 1905. Whilst in Eastbourne Debussy corrected the parts - no substantive alterations were made at this date....this is discussed by the BBC's own programme 'Settling the score', which confirms that the changes Debussy made to his copy of the MS are from the 1909 revision. What source have you for the letter on Grand Hotel headed notepaper to Durand. The question is really, are minor changes a justification for saying Debussy wrote/completed/orchestrated La Mer in Eastbourne. PMD as a guest on an interval talk on alive Prom actually stated that 'Debussy wrote the whole thing in Eastbourne'!

It's interesting that Debussy did write a 'watery' work whilst staying in Room 200 at the Grand Hotel, the replacement first movt for Images bk 1 (piano) which he advised Durand by letter from Eastbourne that he had just completed....of course no one at the BBC advises us of this when it's played! BTW this work is particularly interesting as it is the first work Debussy composed on his newly acquired Blüthner piano with the extra strings on the top octaves......I've just returned from Eastbourne and found the shop in Terminus Rd where Debussy bought this piano, although it is now a Superdrug!

I attended the exhibition in 2016 at the Debussy birthplace museum in St-Germain-en-Laye, 'Sous l'ombre des vagues', specifically concerned with Debussy's relationship with the sea and how it influenced his composition. On asking the curator about a possible link with Eastbourne I was met with mild amusement!

BTW Frank Bridge did write 'The Sea' at the Grand Hotel in Eastbourne.....needless to say this is never mentioned either by the BBC!

Blimey I’ve GOT a 1905 Blüthner . Could it be the one that …,?
I guess Debussy’s was made in 1904 or earlier ….

Must get around to practicing Reflets …..not just the first eight bars either ..

[Roger Webb]

Blimey I’ve GOT a 1905 Blüthner . Could it be the one that …,?
I guess Debussy’s was made in 1904 or earlier ….

Must get to practicing Reflets …..

It's not yours! Debussy's Blüthner (of 1904) is in a museum in Brive la Gaillard! After Debussy died Emma Bardac left it to her son Raoul who moved it Brive, after his wife died it was left to her doctor who subsequently sold it to an antique shop. Luckily someone realised the significance of the instrument and bought it.

It can be heard here (and my comment read!)

https://youtu.be/Qdp9bDUsRk4?si=i6AaodxR7RSeBcnx

[Ein Heldenleben]

It's not yours! Debussy's Blüthner (of 1904) is in a museum in Brive la Gaillard! After Debussy died Emma Bardac left it to her son Raoul who moved it Brive, after his wife died it was left to her doctor who subsequently sold it to an antique shop. Luckily someone realised the significance of the instrument and bought it.

It can be heard here (and my comment read!)

https://youtu.be/Qdp9bDUsRk4?si=i6AaodxR7RSeBcnx

Thanks V much . Identical piano to mine which has been reconditioned (new strings and hammers) . Wonder if this has been . If not in remarkable condition - sounds excellent .

[Roger Webb]

Thanks V much . Identical piano to mine which has been reconditioned (new strings and hammers) . Wonder if this has been . If not in remarkable condition - sounds excellent .

I'm sure it's been reconditioned - somewhere I read that people remember it in Debussy's salon being a different colour, so it's likely other work was done at the time of refinishing.

More info about it here.

https://www.eastbournehistory.org.uk/blog/debussys-piano-alive-and-well-and-living-in-brive-la-gaillarde

[Ein Heldenleben]

I'm sure it's been reconditioned - somewhere I read that people remember it in Debussy's salon being a different colour, so it's likely other work was done at the time of refinishing.

More info about it here.

https://www.eastbournehistory.org.uk...e-la-gaillarde

Very interesting - many thanks .Debussy’s is numbered 65714 which makes it 1905 manufacture according to the Blüthner Archives. The post says there is a query of exact dates as the Blüthner archives were war damaged. But my piano has the original label in it and I just don’t think they could get the numbering that wrong. The builders would remember the years for a start. Mine is 65818.

The “different colour “ might be the rosewood darkening over time as mine did. When restored and French polished the wood looks much lighter. The keys on the video look very white - ivory yellows - and it has quite a bright sound. Blüthners tend to be mellower but it’s not a very good recording .

I had mine reconned by Blüthner but they used Abel hammers and it doesn’t sound the same . I’m now thinking of spending £2,500 on hammers specially made for Bluthners. The big problem is that even with lid closed it exacerbates my tinnitus - uprights are quieter. I’’m looking after a Yammy U1 which in some ways I prefer playing but the bass and mid range aren’t in the same league sound wise.

[Roger Webb]

Very interesting - many thanks .Debussy’s is numbered 65714 which makes it 1905 manufacture according to the Blüthner Archives. The post says there is a query of exact dates as the Blüthner archives were war damaged.

Erm EH, I don't know were you got the number from for Debussy's piano, but the one in the Labenche museum is 65614, not 65714. This could explain the apparent discrepancy in the year of manufacture. 65614 was made in the first quarter of 1904. There was a suggestion that 65614 was bought by Debussy on his earlier trip to Jersey. The trouble with this is that there was no Blüthner dealer in Jersey at that time...let alone S Hermitage and Sons...but they had a shop in Terminus Rd in Eastbourne. Also Dolly Bardac didn't accompany Debussy and Emma to Jersey, so could not have witnessed its purchase there as she claimed in later life - but she did go to Eastbourne with Debussy and Emma.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Erm EH, I don't know were you got the number from for Debussy's piano, but the one in the Labenche museum is 65614, not 65714. This could explain the apparent discrepancy in the year of manufacture. 65614 was made in the first quarter of 1904. There was a suggestion that 65614 was bought by Debussy on his earlier trip to Jersey. The trouble with this is that there was no Blüthner dealer in Jersey at that time...let alone S Hermitage and Sons...but they had a shop in Terminus Rd in Eastbourne. Also Dolly Bardac didn't accompany Debussy and Emma to Jersey, so could not have witnessed its purchase there as she claimed in later life - but she did go to Eastbourne with Debussy and Emma.

A mistype. Surprisingly makes very little difference as in those years they were making 2500 a year if the serial nos are sequential! . As you say 65614 is 1904. In contrast by 2003 they were down to 200 serial nos per year. My piano doesn’t have the vibrating fourth string. I see they are now £66,000 a go new.

[Roger Webb]

My piano doesn’t have the vibrating fourth string. I see they are now £66,000 a go new.

Ah, so yours is not the 'Aliquot' model. The extra 'drone' strings on the top three octaves is what drew Debussy to that particular piano, and he never tired of demonstrating its effect on visitors to his salon! If it's of interest he also had a Bechstein upright in his study, which he composed at, and a Pleyel given to him by the manufacturers who no doubt hoped he would extoll its virtues....something he didn't do apparently!

[Master Jacques]

Thanks, Master Jaques, but I still think you're interpreting the Paradise Garden your way. As I read the libretto:

'... we enter the Paradise Garden. Everything has run wild . A dilapidated little country house... is now an inn. Lighted lanterns hang fromthe verandeh... vagabonds sit drinking with their women.'

The Dark Fiddler says 'Plainly I see
That at your wedding
The fiddler I'll be,'

a 'female companion' says

'Come with us and live free! And when you tire of each other, why, there are others awaiting you.'

This suggests to me a 'bohemian lifestyle', the 'swinging sixties', the 'permissive society' rather than a whorehouse. But the significant moment is when Vreli kisses Sali and 'The Paradise Garden is touched as if by a mysterious enchantment'. This ,surely ,is what the music of the famous interlude is about, and why I felt it wrong (and rather cheap ) to refer to it as a 'pub' instead of telling us something of this. I guess the announcer was simply repeating somethig she had heard, and probably didn't know the opera.

You've quoted the significant line, for sure .... but have trimmed the stage direction a little, which misses the description of the entry of the Dark Fiddler and his bevy of submissive (solo singing) women: "They sit down round a table in the garden and a servant girl brings them some drinks. It is evening; the verandah is lighted by lanterns, soft summer twilight." Fine to call it "permissive society", but that's to ignore the fact that it is inhabited by female "vagabonds" and "gypsies" (both 19th c. middle-class codes for "whore", by the way).

The inhabitants are touched by the lovers' kiss, because it reminds them of the innocence and beauty they've lost, a bit like Tom's song in the whorehouse of The Rake's Progress. The Interlude itself is actually "about" very many things, as the main motif is associated with the simple childhood which the lovers are losing; but it's there in the score, primarily, as a device to represent time passing as they walk towards this very dubious 'Paradise Garden Inn' which they soon dislike so much. In the background throughout the scene are the barge hay bales, onto which they'll climb to consummate their love and commit suicide.

I've no doubt the presenter had never paid much attention to the opera. Opera - particularly in a language people can understand - is a dirty word these days for Radio 3.

[Master Jacques]

You're right!.....and I've often thought this about other works. One to listen to which is obviously influenced by the Debussy...and actually written at sea is 'Journal de bord' (Ship's Log) by Jean Cras, do you know it - it's very impressive for a self-taught musician (he was a naval officer all his adult life, but did a short course in orchestration with Henri Duparc). If in doubt of his abilities try his String Trio, a very impressive work in this difficult genre.

Seconded. Cras is a master, as his magnum opus, the opera Polypheme, demonstrates quite beautifully.

[Roger Webb]

Seconded. Cras is a master, as his magnum opus, the opera Polypheme, demonstrates quite beautifully.

Agreed, I popped this on in the CD shop I used to run just out of curiosity, and was transfixed. Like 'Journal de bord' it shows the influence of Debussy, in the method and soundworld of Pelleas and Mélisande. Luckily Timpani label have given us Cras's complete oeuvre. Have you read Paul-André Bempéchat's masterly monograph on the composer, Jean Cras, Polymath of Music and Letters?

[Ein Heldenleben]

This thread needs some sort of recognition for its combination of range , reconditeness and complete indifference to the prevailing values of our contemporary culture .

[Master Jacques]

Agreed, I popped this on in the CD shop I used to run just out of curiosity, and was transfixed. Like 'Journal de bord' it shows the influence of Debussy, in the method and soundworld of Pelleas and Mélisande. Luckily Timpani label have given us Cras's complete oeuvre. Have you read Paul-André Bempéchat's masterly monograph on the composer, Jean Cras, Polymath of Music and Letters?

I haven't read anything biographical about Cras, except what I've learned from valuable Timpani liner notes - including the fact that his daughter married Tansman.

I do give hearty thanks to Timpani very regularly, as a goldmine for off-piste French composers, invariably in well-presented CD editions with excellent booklets. Primarily for Cras, as you say, but also Pierné (including the complete and completely marvellous Cydalise et le Chèvre-pied), Ropartz, Emmanuel... the label's reach was staggering. I was very sad when they went bust in 2018.

[Roger Webb]

This thread needs some sort of recognition for its combination of range , reconditeness and complete indifference to the prevailing values of our contemporary culture .

I'm not completely indifferent to the prevailing 'values' of our contemporary culture....I lay awake at night wondering what they are, and whether those elements of culture I value will prevail! It's truly shocking what has happened to opera over a very short time span.