Classical Live is changing its tune

[smittims]

Well, I don't know what sources you have for the brothel idea, but as far as I know it's a garden , where an old inn is named after it. I don't know of any reference to drinks (or sex) being sold in the garden. Maybe that is in the novel , which I haven't read. My comment was related solely to the music as played on Radio 3 onthat occasion, , and to the announcer's attempt to 'spice it up' by a mundane reference. I know many people seem to prefer a 'story' of some sort to be attached to music (e.g. the popularity of the 'Moonlight' sonata) ; but I'd have much preferred her to tell us something about the music itself, since that was all that was played (i.e. no singing).

[Roger Webb]

Delius paints the brothel atmosphere more overtly than Keller.............

Perhaps more expertly!.....having read just about all the Delius literature concerning his residency in Paris, I'm surprised he managed to compose at all!

Worth reading his letters to Halfdan Jebe in Lionel Carley's Delius: a life in letters.......and Grainger's comment that Delius practiced sex with a 'puritan's zeal'! Er, look who's talking!

[Roger Webb]

..........I know many people seem to prefer a 'story' of some sort to be attached to music..................

A good example is Debussy's 'La Mer'. The 'story' being that he wrote/completed/orchestrated it in Eastbourne....a claim that is untrue....my french friends are amused by this claim, as is anyone who has bothered to look up the publishing and copyright date of the full score....and then the date Debussy arrived in Eastbourne in 1905! But the BBC trot out the claim every time it's played, most recently by Martin Handley - an Eastbourne resident! You'd think he'd have an interest in getting the facts straight.

[Master Jacques]

Well, I don't know what sources you have for the brothel idea, but as far as I know it's a garden , where an old inn is named after it. I don't know of any reference to drinks (or sex) being sold in the garden. Maybe that is in the novel , which I haven't read. My comment was related solely to the music as played on Radio 3 onthat occasion, , and to the announcer's attempt to 'spice it up' by a mundane reference. I know many people seem to prefer a 'story' of some sort to be attached to music (e.g. the popularity of the 'Moonlight' sonata) ; but I'd have much preferred her to tell us something about the music itself, since that was all that was played (i.e. no singing).

My source here is the Delius opera, not the novel. Follow it with a libretto smittims and it's all there (Scene VI). The Dark Fiddler offers the lovers the Bohemian-Gypsy life represented by the "free love" and alcoholic haze of the Paradise Garden Inn, and they find it repulsive. The ensemble of girls 'Vagabonds are we' is at the heart of Delius's sensual web, his equivalent of the flower maidens, with the Dark Fiddler as its Klingsor-like leading spirit.

I agree with you, by the way, that representing the Interlude as 'a walk to a pub' is crassly misleading. The point is, that the lovers believe they are walking to a special place which will give them release from the impossible shackles on their love - which they are, but tragically not in the sense they wish for.

[Master Jacques]

A good example is Debussy's 'La Mer'. The 'story' being that he wrote/completed/orchestrated it in Eastbourne....a claim that is untrue....my french friends are amused by this claim, as is anyone who has bothered to look up the publishing and copyright date of the full score....and then the date Debussy arrived in Eastbourne in 1905! But the BBC trot out the claim every time it's played, most recently by Martin Handley - an Eastbourne resident! You'd think he'd have an interest in getting the facts straight.

Now hang on a minute. The claim is well verified, that Debussy made final touches to the orchestration and corrected the publisher's proofs of La Mer from his room at Eastbourne's Grand Hotel, after July 23 1905. The letters to his publisher Durand are on Grand Hotel headed notepaper, to prove it. And the piece was premiered on 15 October 1905 in Paris, though it only "made a splash" with the first (much better played) New York and London performances a few years later. You can safely quote all this to your insular French friends!

[Master Jacques]

Perhaps more expertly!.....having read just about all the Delius literature concerning his residency in Paris, I'm surprised he managed to compose at all!

Worth reading his letters to Halfdan Jebe in Lionel Carley's Delius: a life in letters.......and Grainger's comment that Delius practiced sex with a 'puritan's zeal'! Er, look who's talking!

Quite so: and A Village Romeo and Juliet represents a remarkable reflection on the pros and cons of his own, chosen life style. The whole (marvellous) opera turns on this distinction between love (always tragic) and sex (ultimately empty).

[Roger Webb]

Now hang on a minute. The claim is well verified, that Debussy made final touches to the orchestration and corrected the publisher's proofs of La Mer from his room at Eastbourne's Grand Hotel, after July 23 1905. The letters to his publisher Durand are on Grand Hotel headed notepaper, to prove it. And the piece was premiered on 15 October 1905 in Paris, though it only "made a splash" with the first (much better played) New York and London performances a few years later. You can safely quote all this to your insular French friends!

Debussy's 'La Mer' was completed in full score and published by Durand on 5th March 1905, the copyright was issued to protect the printed parts which Debussy took to Eastbourne in July 1905. Whilst in Eastbourne Debussy corrected the parts - no substantive alterations were made at this date....this is discussed by the BBC's own programme 'Settling the score', which confirms that the changes Debussy made to his copy of the MS are from the 1909 revision. What source have you for the letter on Grand Hotel headed notepaper to Durand. The question is really, are minor changes a justification for saying Debussy wrote/completed/orchestrated La Mer in Eastbourne. PMD as a guest on an interval talk on alive Prom actually stated that 'Debussy wrote the whole thing in Eastbourne'!

It's interesting that Debussy did write a 'watery' work whilst staying in Room 200 at the Grand Hotel, the replacement first movt for Images bk 1 (piano) which he advised Durand by letter from Eastbourne that he had just completed....of course no one at the BBC advises us of this when it's played! BTW this work is particularly interesting as it is the first work Debussy composed on his newly acquired Blüthner piano with the extra strings on the top octaves......I've just returned from Eastbourne and found the shop in Terminus Rd where Debussy bought this piano, although it is now a Superdrug!

I attended the exhibition in 2016 at the Debussy birthplace museum in St-Germain-en-Laye, 'Sous l'ombre des vagues', specifically concerned with Debussy's relationship with the sea and how it influenced his composition. On asking the curator about a possible link with Eastbourne I was met with mild amusement!

BTW Frank Bridge did write 'The Sea' at the Grand Hotel in Eastbourne.....needless to say this is never mentioned either by the BBC!

[Roger Webb]

Quite so: and A Village Romeo and Juliet represents a remarkable reflection on the pros and cons of his own, chosen life style. The whole (marvellous) opera turns on this distinction between love (always tragic) and sex (ultimately empty).

Well put.....and not only A Village R and J......... Irmelin, The Magic Fountain, Margot la Rouge, Koanga and Fennimore and Gerda all have the theme of unattainable and ultimately tragic love.

[Master Jacques]

Debussy's 'La Mer' was completed in full score and published by Durand on 5th March 1905, the copyright was issued to protect the printed parts which Debussy took to Eastbourne in July 1905. Whilst in Eastbourne Debussy corrected the parts - no substantive alterations were made at this date....this is discussed by the BBC's own programme 'Settling the score', which confirms that the changes Debussy made to his copy of the MS are from the 1909 revision. What source have you for the letter on Grand Hotel headed notepaper to Durand. The question is really, are minor changes a justification for saying Debussy wrote/completed/orchestrated La Mer in Eastbourne. PMD as a guest on an interval talk on alive Prom actually stated that 'Debussy wrote the whole thing in Eastbourne'!

It's interesting that Debussy did write a 'watery' work whilst staying in Room 200 at the Grand Hotel, the replacement first movt for Images bk 1 (piano) which he advised Durand by letter from Eastbourne that he had just completed....of course no one at the BBC advises us of this when it's played! BTW this work is particularly interesting as it is the first work Debussy composed on his newly acquired Blüthner piano with the extra strings on the top octaves......I've just returned from Eastbourne and found the shop in Terminus Rd where Debussy bought this piano, although it is now a Superdrug!

I attended the exhibition in 2016 at the Debussy birthplace museum in St-Germain-en-Laye, 'Sous l'ombre des vagues', specifically concerned with Debussy's relationship with the sea and how it influenced his composition. On asking the curator about a possible link with Eastbourne I was met with mild amusement!

BTW Frank Bridge did write 'The Sea' at the Grand Hotel in Eastbourne.....needless to say this is never mentioned either by the BBC!

The copyright was issued, for the reasons you deftly explain, on nominal publication early in the year, but the reality was that physical scores were printed - from galley proofs corrected by the composer during the summer - and distributed at the time of the premiere. Otherwise, you are of course right about the corrections to the printed orchestral parts being made in Eastbourne over the summer, which involved some changes to instrumentation. I get the headed notepaper from Roger Nichols, if I remember rightly, but don't have the reference to hand. There would be nothing surprising about this: free headed paper was all part of the service, and swanky to send.

Your information about 'Sous l'ombre des vagues' is really interesting, and ought to be better known! I'm reminded of visiting Falla's house in Granada, where the guide (confidently pointing to a lovely maritime watercolour cartoon on the wall, signed 'Debussy') tried to tell us that Debussy's present to his Spanish friend was a representation of La Mer, when it was quite apparent - judging from the numbers of jolly people on the boat deck - that it was depicting En Bateau!

[Roger Webb]

The copyright was issued, for the reasons you deftly explain, on nominal publication early in the year, but the reality was that physical scores were printed - from galley proofs corrected by the composer during the summer - and distributed at the time of the premiere. Otherwise, you are of course right about the corrections to the printed orchestral parts being made in Eastbourne over the summer, which involved some changes to instrumentation. I get the headed notepaper from Roger Nichols, if I remember rightly, but don't have the reference to hand. There would be nothing surprising about this: free headed paper was all part of the service, and swanky to send.

Your information about 'Sous l'ombre des vagues' is really interesting, and ought to be better known! I'm reminded of visiting Falla's house in Granada, where the guide (confidently pointing to a lovely maritime watercolour cartoon on the wall, signed 'Debussy') tried to tell us that Debussy's present to his Spanish friend was a representation of La Mer, when it was quite apparent - judging from the numbers of jolly people on the boat deck - that it was depicting En Bateau!

Thanks for the reply, I think I have all of Roger Nichols's Debussy literature (including Grove '94 re-print) and can't remember reproductions of any correspondence between Debussy and Durand....apart from quotes - many of the biographers quote from this....they probably have access to the Toulet (1929) complete letters between the two.



I've been to the de Falla house, but don't remember the mis-attributed sketch.


I haven't stayed at the Grand in Eastbourne since I was 10, so don't remember the headed notepaper!

[Master Jacques]

I haven't stayed at the Grand in Eastbourne since I was 10, so don't remember the headed notepaper!

French composers coming to English Grand Hotels seem to have been particularly keen on using it. There's an amusing anecdote about Massenet, when he was staying in London for the world premiere of La Navarraise at Covent Garden in 1894, and staying at some palatial establishment or other. He only wanted to write home to Paris, but ... ‘Ten times already I have cried ‘Give me some paper!’ They think I mean toilet paper!’. He never returned to London.

I was referring to something written by Nichols, not a graphic reproduction of any particular letter.

[Master Jacques]

I've been to the de Falla house, but don't remember the mis-attributed sketch.

It is in his tiny parlour, along with the weird, blue-painted furniture. One of Falla's paranoias was malaria, and somebody had told him that mosquitos wouldn't come near blue-painted furniture. Strange but true....

[Roger Webb]

Massenet, when he was staying in London......at some palatial establishment or other. He only wanted to write home to Paris, but ... ‘Ten times already I have cried ‘Give me some paper!’ They think I mean toilet paper!’. He never returned to London....

Amusing about Massenet, I hadn't heard that one!...….it reminds me of the story Bernard Levin used to tell about staying at a Moscow hotel back in the Cold War times. One had to go down to the lobby and book a phone call. He was told to go into the booth, only to find he didn't have the dialling code for London. He went back to the lobby counter and asked the concierge 'what is the code was for London', the concierge leaned forward, looked furtively around him, and whispered 'The sparrows nest early in spring'!

[smittims]

Thanks, Master Jaques, but I still think you're interpreting the Paradise Garden your way. As I read the libretto:

'... we enter the Paradise Garden. Everything has run wild . A dilapidated little country house... is now an inn. Lighted lanterns hang fromthe verandeh... vagabonds sit drinking with their women.'

The Dark Fiddler says 'Plainly I see
That at your wedding
The fiddler I'll be,'

a 'female companion' says

'Come with us and live free! And when you tire of each other, why, there are others awaiting you.'

This suggests to me a 'bohemian lifestyle', the 'swinging sixties', the 'permissive society' rather than a whorehouse. But the significant moment is when Vreli kisses Sali and 'The Paradise Garden is touched as if by a mysterious enchantment'. This ,surely ,is what the music of the famous interlude is about, and why I felt it wrong (and rather cheap ) to refer to it as a 'pub' instead of telling us something of this. I guess the announcer was simply repeating somethig she had heard, and probably didn't know the opera.

[smittims]

Wherever La Mer was composed, I wonder if anyone would associate it with the sea if they hadn't been told, and if Debussy hadn't given it maritime titles. Without them, we have, surely, a symphonie francaise : in three movements, in cyclic form ,and with a slow introduction . Voila!