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  • Pulcinella
    Host
    • Feb 2014
    • 10889

    #16
    I think American usage is much more aligned (allied?) with meaning 6 here:

    the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life; the spiritual principle embodied in human beings, all rational and spiritual beings, or the universe; god… See the full definition


    6
    : PERSON
    not a soul in sight

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    • Serial_Apologist
      Full Member
      • Dec 2010
      • 37592

      #17
      Originally posted by Pulcinella View Post
      I think American usage is much more aligned (allied?) with meaning 6 here:

      the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life; the spiritual principle embodied in human beings, all rational and spiritual beings, or the universe; god… See the full definition


      6
      : PERSON
      not a soul in sight
      The Soul in Hinduism and Buddhism is, I understand from my own selective readings (primarily Alan Watts), the Atman, which is seen as the governing principle of all life, to which all should accord, rather than a god or God, in any anthropomorphic sense. They see all living beings as at one with this principle, or life force - something that is closest perhaps to Bergson's élan vital in Western philosophy. Individual beings are not seen as having separate souls in the pure Indian tradition - this principle of inseparability being represented by the Sanscrit term Anatman, or no-soul. Enlightenment consists in part in a deep realisation of ones inseparability from this realm, and a ceasing for longing for eternity. That longing keeps the individual perpetually on the wheel or round of birth-and-death, or Samsara, and it is this which Watts, after years of discussion with mahatmas of various of the many Hindu persuasions and particular Zen masters keen to disabuse Western advocates, came to understand as a metaphoric rather than literal interpretation of re-incarnation. Indeed he argued that many believers in re-incarnation might themselves be clinging onto belief in an afterlife in hope. No afterlife means no one to experience it.

      Personally, were I to be world dictator, I would set Watts's The Way of Zen as compulsory reading in all state-run schools worldwide; it would immediately foster a fundamental attitudinal and psychological change in the collective mindset and potentially set humankind off on a pathway to a sustainable future.

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      • eighthobstruction
        Full Member
        • Nov 2010
        • 6432

        #18
        ....added to that Music Matters on Saturday passed (6.7.20) appeared to be another Private Passions spin off with Clive Myrie and Lyse Ducet....is someone getting their days mixed up Record Review is Saturday and Music Map is on Sundays....(or is it me who is confused)
        bong ching

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        • eighthobstruction
          Full Member
          • Nov 2010
          • 6432

          #19
          Originally posted by vinteuil View Post

          a pedant worries - can you "grow fewer"? Doesn't seem to be what 'growing' entails...

          .
          ....and does that rule change when atrophy gets less.....
          bong ching

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          • french frank
            Administrator/Moderator
            • Feb 2007
            • 30247

            #20
            Originally posted by eighthobstruction View Post
            ....added to that Music Matters on Saturday passed (6.7.20) appeared to be another Private Passions spin off with Clive Myrie and Lyse Ducet....is someone getting their days mixed up Record Review is Saturday and Music Map is on Sundays....(or is it me who is confused)
            Music Matters now consists of themed series. We had 6 episodes of Clemency Burton-Hill on the Western-Eastern Divan orchestra; now I presume we get 6 episodes BBC presenters reporting from the war front.

            The next series will be BBC presenter Nick Robinson on the last 6 Conservative prime ministers, followed by BBC presenter Laura Kuenssberg on 6 Current Women Leaders From Around the World. This will be followed by BBC presenter Robert Peston on 6 Ways of Making Money Fast. Ad nauseam.
            It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

            Comment

            • AuntDaisy
              Host
              • Jun 2018
              • 1620

              #21
              Originally posted by french frank View Post
              Music Matters now consists of themed series. We had 6 episodes of Clemency Burton-Hill on the Western-Eastern Divan orchestra; now I presume we get 6 episodes BBC presenters reporting from the war front.

              The next series will be BBC presenter Nick Robinson on the last 6 Conservative prime ministers, followed by BBC presenter Laura Kuenssberg on 6 Current Women Leaders From Around the World. This will be followed by BBC presenter Robert Peston on 6 Ways of Making Money Fast. Ad nauseam.
              ... followed by a series with Jools Holland interviewing pairs of shoes & asking why sole matters to them.

              Tom Service's interviews might actually be recent highlights.

              Comment

              • eighthobstruction
                Full Member
                • Nov 2010
                • 6432

                #22
                #20 #21
                bong ching

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                • vinteuil
                  Full Member
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 12789

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
                  Personally, were I to be world dictator, I would set Watts's The Way of Zen as compulsory reading in all state-run schools worldwide; it would immediately foster a fundamental attitudinal and psychological change in the collective mindset.....
                  ... "immediately foster" my aunt Fanny -

                  "collective mindset" -

                  - there will always be bolshie contrarian pupils (comme moi) who will be able to argue against this stuff (and with reason) - bicoz this buddhist world view quickly runs up against real problems covered by things such as personal identity -



                  Suggested initial reading here -

                  Bernard Williams, Problems of the Self
                  Derek Parfitt, Reasons and Persons
                  David Wiggins, Identity and Spatio-Temporal Continuity

                  But Serial might enjoy this approach -



                  .
                  Last edited by vinteuil; 08-07-24, 17:58.

                  Comment

                  • Serial_Apologist
                    Full Member
                    • Dec 2010
                    • 37592

                    #24
                    Originally posted by vinteuil View Post

                    ... "immediately foster" my aunt Fanny -

                    "collective mindset" -

                    - there will always be bolshie contrarian pupils (comme moi) who will be able to argue against this stuff (and with reason) - bicoz this buddhist world view quickly runs up against real problems covered by things such as personal identity -



                    Suggested initial reading here -

                    Bernard Williams, Problems of the Self
                    Derek Parfitt, Reasons and Persons
                    David Wiggins, Identity and Spatio-Temporal Continuity

                    But Serial might enjoy this approach -



                    .
                    Thanks vints - I'll read that tomorrow.

                    Comment

                    • french frank
                      Administrator/Moderator
                      • Feb 2007
                      • 30247

                      #25
                      Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
                      The Soul in Hinduism and Buddhism is, I understand from my own selective readings (primarily Alan Watts), the Atman, which is seen as the governing principle of all life, to which all should accord, rather than a god or God, in any anthropomorphic sense.
                      According to the OED 'soul' can mean:

                      The lungs of a goose (or occasionally another fowl).
                      The bore of a cannon.
                      A nocturnal moth = ghost moth

                      The sound-post of a violin.
                      It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                      Comment

                      • eighthobstruction
                        Full Member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 6432

                        #26
                        ....I like the AtMan approach - I believe it really could be successful if only folk would get behind it and forget their "invisible friend" tendencies....free, clear, unadulterated....(Ah we worship The Cleaner Up of Dirty Minds - and offer up our Iphones and the need to have a 24 vehicle with all the frills).....Ah but don't they know it is the thrill of frills that blights their happiness....and we'd never have to use the word beseech again [except when talking to Darren Southgate]....
                        bong ching

                        Comment

                        • Serial_Apologist
                          Full Member
                          • Dec 2010
                          • 37592

                          #27
                          One of the points central to Zen Buddhism, in particular, that marks it down as a distinctive sort of "faith", consists in trusting to one's inborn nature - which, after all (if we are to believe in the principles of ecology and evolution) was induced into us from the conditions that gave rise to our species, including our capacity or potential for reasoning - as presented by Alan Watts. What he argued must seem self-evident (excuse pun) and incontrovertible: to not trust in ones inmost nature is synonymous with inability to trust in one's mistrust, given that trust and mistrust both emanate from one and the same source. An error of reasoning has come about, partly through a culture's belief in reason(ing) holding all the final cards. The only argument against this would be forced to divide the self against the self, but this good vs. evil dichotomy is a Christian and post-Christian construct - one which has proved very useful in controlling others and instilling self-control (or the illusion thereof) into children. The cultivated individual is not brought about by self-repression (which as Freud understood (even though by dint of his own Christian guilt residues he thought it necessary) merely triggers secondary problems), but through practice, in the way, say, a musician, calligrapher or lathe operator becomes skilled. Forced growth is antithetical to Zen, and for all the advances of science we too often see the de-stabilising counter-productiveness of bending nature to our bidding.

                          Originally posted by eighthobstruction View Post
                          ....I like the AtMan approach - I believe it really could be successful if only folk would get behind it and forget their "invisible friend" tendencies....free, clear, unadulterated....(Ah we worship The Cleaner Up of Dirty Minds - and offer up our Iphones and the need to have a 24 vehicle with all the frills).....Ah but don't they know it is the thrill of frills that blights their happiness....and we'd never have to use the word beseech again [except when talking to Darren Southgate]....
                          That's it! I did not have to go far into the references kindly provided by vinteuil to find this passage outlining a provisional character of identity to be completely in harmony with Buddhist teachings, as I understand them:

                          Someone's personal identity in this sense, [what sort of person I am in some deep and fundamental sense] is in this sense contingent and temporary; the way I identify myself as a person might have been different, and can vary from one time to another. it is a subset, usually small, of the properties someone has.








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