BBC Music Day

[doversoul1]

Do they live in some sort of alternative reality?

They seem to speak alternative English. A new version of BBC English….

[MrGongGong]

Gershwin was a person, not a sort of music. The fact that he wrote some concert hall pieces which can rightly be described as 'classical' doesn't mean that everything he wrote can therefore be described in the same way.

I see this has been merged with "pedants paradise"

I mean Gershwin's music
and, yes, YOU are right but (as said before) Gershwin's, Bach's, Xenakis's, Mozart's, John Williams's musics are ALL "classical" to those who aren't familiar.

[P. G. Tipps]

I see this has been merged with "pedants paradise"

I mean Gershwin's music
and, yes, YOU are right but (as said before) Gershwin's, Bach's, Xenakis's, Mozart's, John Williams's musics are ALL "classical" to those who aren't familiar.

The poster who suggested that 'classical music' is bad for one's 'street cred' is spot on. It's a bit like producing a copy of The Times, Guardian or Telegraph in a staff-canteen littered with the Sun, Star and Daily Mail.

Although these are all defined as 'newspapers' everyone ... even idiots ... can spot the difference. For example, one would never expect to see a dedicated and regular full-page photo of a topless young lady in the first three or a serious, informed article about anything at all in the latter (three). Music is no different. Everyone ... yes, even idiots ... can spot that difference and choose accordingly.

The BBC is just playing its full and vigorous part in the 'equality' ethos of the modern era. Nothing must be different (or considered "superior") to anything else so the logical result is that because lower achievement can never rise to higher achievement a dumbing-down of standards is inevitable. Hence we end up with R3 desperately trying to sound more like R2 than even R2 itself, or 'cooler' and even more 'listener friendly' than CFM.

We reap what we sow, I'm afraid ...

[Roehre]

The poster who suggested that 'classical music' is bad for one's 'street cred' is spot on. It's a bit like producing a copy of The Times, Guardian or Telegraph in a staff-canteen littered with the Sun, Star and Daily Mail.

Although these are all defined as 'newspapers' everyone ... even idiots ... can spot the difference. For example, one would never expect to see a dedicated and regular full-page photo of a topless young lady in the first three or a serious, informed article about anything at all in the latter (three). Music is no different. Everyone ... yes, even idiots ... can spot that difference and choose accordingly.

The BBC is just playing its full and vigorous part in the 'equality' ethos of the modern era. Nothing must be different (or considered "superior") to anything else so the logical result is that because lower achievement can never rise to higher achievement a dumbing-down of standards is inevitable. Hence we end up with R3 desperately trying to sound more like R2 than even R2 itself, or 'cooler' and even more 'listener friendly' than CFM.

We reap what we sow, I'm afraid ...

Well put PGT

[MrGongGong]

Nothing must be different (or considered "superior") to anything else so the logical result is that because lower achievement can never rise to higher achievement a dumbing-down of standards is inevitable..

Humm

You are starting with the assumption that "Classical Music" IS "superior" and then conflating it with the nebulous concept of "higher achievement".


Getting confused (as you and many other do) about "difference" and "quality" is very popular (the "I like it because it's good, it's good because I like it" argument).

That's a low 2:2 from me (it's marking time chums)

It's a narrative that is very current at the moment though.

[french frank]

and, yes, YOU are right but (as said before) Gershwin's, Bach's, Xenakis's, Mozart's, John Williams's musics are ALL "classical" to those who aren't familiar.

Exactly. Meaning 'the BBC' in this case, since they were the ones who organised the content. They don't appear to have anyone who is 'familiar' with it, apart from at Radio 3 which gets squeezed out of 'celebrating music' in its own, different, way.

This shouldn't be a protest against Radio 3.

[french frank]

I don't understand why you have formally complained that BBC Four had no classical music programming tonight.

That wasn't the complaint. I was merely pointing out that, as BBC Four has a remit to cover classical music (but, as it happened, chose to limit its coverage to popular music), it made Radio 3's 'celebratory' coverage of Music Day, along with Radio 2's evening concert, pretty much of a non-event for Radio 3 classical listeners. Some celebration!

Your comment that the evening concert was 'only partly classical' indicates, as if we didn't know, that you aren't interested in classical music.

1. A single movement from a violin concerto
2. A well-known extract from a Rimsky-Korsakov concert suite
3. An operatic aria performed by a (no doubt very gifted) tenor promoted as a crossover artist
4. Straight from Classic FM's Hall of Fame: Méditation from Thaïs

Although the concert was 'simulcast' on Radio 2 & Radio 3, Radio 3 also claims the overture from The Marriage of Figaro (not on its original playlist, and not mentioned on Radio 2's).

Now, whereas that might make a little 30-min 'popular classics' programme:

1. It will not have the same appeal when fitted into the context of an orchestration of a Beach Boys' song, pieces from Candide, My Fair Lady and West Side Story, a pop band, some folks songs, some folkhop, Lulu …

2. Even the little classical programme has little musical appeal for a classical music audience, though could be an ambitious parental idea for a teenager's party or for Classic FM.

Looking at Radio 3's schedule for the day, there was CotW (as usual - Kodály chosen for his educational contribution), a pretty decent live concert in the Lunchtime Concert slot (not unusual).

Much of the rest was focused on amateur, populist performance. I'm told the evening concert was greeted rapturously ('hysterically' was the description), whipped up by enthusiastic presenters, one who became noticeably hoarse, the other relishing being on Radio 2.

Jamie Cullum commented that music 'brings people together'. Yes it does, as we see. It can also alienate, powerfully. I would have preferred to have felt drawn to Radio 3, rather than excluded.

[MrGongGong]

1. It will not have the same appeal when fitted into the context of an orchestration of a Beach Boys' song, pieces from Candide, My Fair Lady and West Side Story, a pop band, some folks songs, some folkhop, Lulu …

(wrong one? )

Jamie Cullum commented that music 'brings people together'. Yes it does, as we see. It can also alienate, powerfully. I would have preferred to have felt drawn to Radio 3, rather than excluded.

Like football?

I do sometimes feel that folks go about this in a daft way.
There are a huge number of people who listen to Psytrance, Metal, Glitchy Hip-hop etc etc who get really excited when they discover Wagner, Xenakis, Webern etc why do folk always think that people lack adventure in the music they listen to?
The young (and not so young!) folks who trek round Europe to festivals have a real commitment to music in a similar way to those who religiously attend CE or organ recitals but all the attempts at 'introducing' music seem to focus on the middle of the road.

[french frank]

I do sometimes feel that folks go about this in a daft way.
There are a huge number of people who listen to Psytrance, Metal, Glitchy Hip-hop etc etc who get really excited when they discover Wagner, Xenakis, Webern etc why do folk always think that people lack adventure in the music they listen to?

I agree, although I'm probably approaching it from a different view. If I were Controller of 6 Music, I would have a regular programme of contemporary (so-called ) classical music. 6 Music listeners think of themselves as more <ahem> 'left-field' than the average pop fan; even superior. Test that out - give them the kind of music that the 'average' classical fan finds too way-out.

The young (and not so young!) folks who trek round Europe to festivals have a real commitment to music in a similar way to those who religiously attend CE or organ recitals but all the attempts at 'introducing' music seem to focus on the middle of the road.

The difference is that the not-so-young have generally formed their personal tastes from a huge range of music that they've met since their youth. A 60-year-old dedicated classical fan who has either completely rejected popular music, or who still likes popular music encountered during an earlier phase of life, is less likely to 'keep up' with the latest in progressive popular music.

The young, nowadays, are presented with music in exactly the way that the BBC presented it on Thursday: a range of musical styles all jumbled up together. I can't see that there was either the context [hehe!] or the music to develop any new musical interests (the Northumbrian pipes, perhaps?). Such classical music as there was, was middle-aged and presented in a middle-aged way. There was nothing excitingly new. And that's not just on Music Day - it's on 365 days of the year (366 in Leap Year).

[Zucchini]

Even the Proms [on BBC4] are likely to be John Wilson's orchestra playing Broadway - which used to be BBC Two's province. Just as BBC Two, the cultural channel, soon moved over to light entertainment, that's the way BBC Four is going too.

Ridiculous. The Friends of Radio 3 do make me laugh sometimes...

Broadcast details of televised Proms
Prom 1: First Night of the Proms, BBC Two, 17 July
Ten Pieces Prom, recorded for future broadcast
Prom 4: Beethoven - Symphony No. 9, BBC Four, 19 July
Prom 10: Leif Ove Andsnes and the Mahler Chamber Orchestra, BBC Four, 24 July
Prom 7: Nielsen and Hugh Wood, BBC Four, 30 July
Prom 13: Holst - The Planets, BBC Four, 31 July
Prom 17: Elgar's Symphony No. 2 in E flat major, BBC Four, 2 August
Prom 5: Haydn, HK Gruber & Stravinsky, BBC Four, 6 August
Prom 30: Late Night Sinatra, BBC Four, 7 August
Prom 22: Aurora Orchestra – Brett Dean & Beethoven, BBC Four, 9 August
Prom 32: Eric Whitacre and the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, BBC Four, 14 August
Prom 31: National Youth Orchestra of Great Britain – Mahler, BBC Four, 16 August
Prom 19: Alina Ibragimova plays Bach, BBC Four, 20 August
Prom 44: West-Eastern Divan Orchestra & Daniel Barenboim, BBC Four, 21 August
Prom 46: Danish National Symphony Orchestra – Nielsen, BBC Four, 23 August
Prom 21: Alina Ibragimova plays Bach, BBC Four, 27 August
Prom 35: Story of Swing, BBC Four, 28 August
Prom 34: Britten & Korngold, BBC Four, 13 August, Prokofiev, BBC Four, 30 August
Prom 50: Bach – Goldberg variations, BBC Four, 3 September
Prom 57: Chamber Orchestra of Europe & Bernard Haitink, BBC Four, 4 September
Prom 24: James MacMillan, BBC Four, 6 September
Prom 68: Bach – Six Cello Suites, BBC Four, 10 September
Prom 67: Bernstein – Stage and Screen, BBC Four, 11 September
Prom 76: Last Night of the Proms, First half BBC Two, second half BBC One, 12 September
(Sourcce BBC)

[french frank]

Ridiculous. The Friends of Radio 3 do make me laugh sometimes...

Er, Late Night Sinatra? [Eric Whitacre - don't know, bit lighter] Story of Swing? Bernstein Stage and Screen? Those are the ones which used to be on BBC Two.

Is that the full list? None on BBC Two except the First and Last Nights? You make my point - that the BBC Two Proms have been moved to BBC Four (incl. the two John Wilson Proms).

Eg 2009 http://genome.ch.bbc.co.uk/29e34ea4e...a55a31701b5481

[Honoured Guest]

Er, Late Night Sinatra? [Eric Whitacre - don't know, bit lighter] Story of Swing? Bernstein Stage and Screen? Those are the ones which used to be on BBC Two.

Is that the full list? None on BBC Two except the First and Last Nights? You make my point - that the BBC Two Proms have been moved to BBC Four (incl. the two John Wilson Proms).

Eg 2009 http://genome.ch.bbc.co.uk/29e34ea4e...a55a31701b5481

That's not a point; it's a fact. If you have a point, pray share it so that I can disagree.

[burning dog]

The poster who suggested that 'classical music' is bad for one's 'street cred' is spot on. It's a bit like producing a copy of The Times, Guardian or Telegraph in a staff-canteen littered with the Sun, Star and Daily Mail.

...

By it's original meaning I cant imagine anything or anybody with a lower streeet-cred rating than the Daily Mail (less than X Factor!)

When did street-cred start to mean populist?

I think one of earlier times I heard the phrase was in relation to Steel Pulse in 1978