The Eternal Breakfast Debate in a New Place

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

You seem to concede that a broadly inclusive approach that includes music from other genres was one way to build a classical audience in the 19th century, but not for some reason, now that R3 exists.

Newman & Wood announced the works that would be included in the concerts. This is a very different matter from sticking a non-classical item unannounced in the middle of a programme that advertises itself as providing "a great selection of classical music". Does the Beeb imagine a listener (whom they wish to introduce to "classical" Music) reading that description and thinking "Aha! They don't say 'just classical Music' so I'll tune in in the expectation of hearing something that isn't classical"? Or do they imagine that a listener, disenchanted with the offerings of Rs1, 2, 4, 5, & 6 (and CFM, and streaming, and their own playlists) will retune their radios and, encountering "Hello, Dolly" on the airwaves, exclaim "Great! This is the channel for me! Oh, they've stopped and are now playing something classical! Damn! Ah well, I've sat down now and can't be bothered to get up and switch off. Hey, this Thomas Tallis is really good; I'm sticking with this station from now on!"

Perhaps that is what they think might be happening - perhaps it is what's happening, dozens of times a day every week. And those who enjoy the format can sleep soundly in their beds knowing that none of the complaints from the rest of us is going to alter a damn thing - no one in the UK will be troubled by a Haydn Quartet from any broadcasting station before lunchtime.

[french frank]

Admittedly slightly shifty but not irrelevant.

Heh, heh! I wasn't of course, suggesting that you were being devious, but Radio 3 IF they intended the word "Classics" to be understood in that way. Sony had a collection called - would you believe? - Essential Classics back in the 1990s which was a starter series of "classical" works, much what one might possibly expect from the title (so even the title of the R3 programme wasn't original).

I'm not suggesting that anyone who has a serious interest in classical music could not possibly enjoy a programme with a wide variety of styles of music, interaction with presenters, requesting music, generally joining in with "the gang" [sic]. Of course they can. But it isn't difficult, either, to accept that others with a serious interest in classical music want music that inspires, stimulates, engrosses, makes demands which is more what Radio 3 used to be like - at least when I started listening. I, being of that latter group, simply don't understand why there can't be programmes for musical theatre (what about Stage and Screen?), film music, world music, jazz &c so that people who like that music know where and when to find it. But more importantly why only the 'live music' programmes ever play full-length works. To me, it is (well it was) fundamental that whatever Radio 3 did, it took seriously. Listening to a programme which I know will have a variety of genres and short pieces in a range of different styles, not a single piece of substantial music lasting 30 mins or more (and without knowing what's going to be played and when) just isn't for my kind of listening.

You seem to concede that a broadly inclusive approach that includes music from other genres was one way to build a classical audience in the 19th century, but not for some reason, now that R3 exists.

True. The BBC has five radio stations, all devoted to music. As ferney said, Radio 2 was the station for introducing people to the lighter end of classical music, leaving Radio 3 to devote itself seriously to 'the arts' - yes, including drama, serious features, jazz, of course. But being 'formal, heavy, serious' &c was how it served people who took the arts seriously. Having to cater for the very people who DON'T want 'formal, heavy, serious' means that it's all change to appeal to 'the broader audience'.

I think I've misunderstood your point that R3 serves 'predominantly ...other audiences'. Perhaps I listen to a different R3.

Bound to be since I gave up on the station entirely years ago. But I can still see the playlists, read the comments, listen on and off if I want to find out if things have improved. The 'other audiences' I had in mind are the 'casual classical' [Breakfast, Essential Classics]. That takes care of the entire peaktime listening period for radio. CotW and the lunchtime recital are 'back to the old days' - that's two hours. I check the afternoon concerts, though I feel that the 'concert' format means that the music isn't as exciting as it might be. The repeat of CotW doesn't count as an additional hour. The evening concert - in principle fine but the rest of the evening's music is for the jazz, world, 'eclectic' Late Junction audiences. And so to bed.

That's what I meant

[gradus]

Newman & Wood announced the works that would be included in the concerts. This is a very different matter from sticking a non-classical item unannounced in the middle of a programme that advertises itself as providing "a great selection of classical music". Does the Beeb imagine a listener (whom they wish to introduce to "classical" Music) reading that description and thinking "Aha! They don't say 'just classical Music' so I'll tune in in the expectation of hearing something that isn't classical"? Or do they imagine that a listener, disenchanted with the offerings of Rs1, 2, 4, 5, & 6 (and CFM, and streaming, and their own playlists) will retune their radios and, encountering "Hello, Dolly" on the airwaves, exclaim "Great! This is the channel for me! Oh, they've stopped and are now playing something classical! Damn! Ah well, I've sat down now and can't be bothered to get up and switch off. Hey, this Thomas Tallis is really good; I'm sticking with this station from now on!"

Perhaps that is what they think might be happening - perhaps it is what's happening, dozens of times a day every week. And those who enjoy the format can sleep soundly in their beds knowing that none of the complaints from the rest of us is going to alter a damn thing - no one in the UK will be troubled by a Haydn Quartet from any broadcasting station before lunchtime.

I'm not sure how musical enthusiasm is aroused or how love for classical music is born ferney. Based on my own experience - what else have I?- a cross-section of music worked for me but of course others follow different paths. By the way I'd enjoy a morning Haydn quartet, how about The Sunrise for starters, are you listening Suzy?

[antongould]

I'm not sure how musical enthusiasm is aroused or how love for classical music is born ferney. Based on my own experience - what else have I?- a cross-section of music worked for me but of course others follow different paths. By the way I'd enjoy a morning Haydn quartet, how about The Sunrise for starters, are you listening Suzy?

In the last year Haydn String Quartets have appeared on Essential Classics playlists on 13 occasions - if the descriptions are to be believed 9 single movements and 4 complete performances .....

[oddoneout]

The repeat of CotW doesn't count as an additional hour.

Doesn't count at all as it doesn't happen any more......

[LMcD]

Doesn't count at all as it doesn't happen any more......

… more's the pity!

[cloughie]

In the last year Haydn String Quartets have appeared on Essential Classics playlists on 13 occasions - if the descriptions are to be believed 9 single movements and 4 complete performances .....

...and there was the Mozart SQ K80 this morning! Yes anton I tuned in this morning whilst travelling along our rural roads and enjoyed!

[antongould]

...and there was the Mozart SQ K80 this morning! Yes anton I tuned in this morning whilst travelling along our rural roads and enjoyed!

A man indeed of boundless taste and refinement .......

[cloughie]

A man indeed of boundless taste and refinement .......

Do you mean Skellers, Mozart or me, anton?

[LMcD]

A man indeed of boundless taste and refinement .......

I thought this was a reference to 'The Duke of Edinburgh who's 97' (to give him what appears to be his full name)

[antongould]

A man indeed of boundless taste and refinement .......

You and Skellers ..... I worry about Mozart

[LeMartinPecheur]

...and there was the Mozart SQ K80 this morning! Yes anton I tuned in this morning whilst travelling along our rural roads and enjoyed!

Any background noise was probably Hans Keller screaming from the grave - see his chapter on the quartets in the Faber Mozart Companion

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Relating to the issue of listeners having little or no advance warning of what is going to be played, I recall the weekly excitement of buying the Radio Times, and marking the works I wanted to hear, as indicated on the Radio 3 page (and Radios 3 & 4 had a page each - as much as the entire radio network now gets in total).

Consequently, I learnt a great deal about music for many years. Now I learn about how Antonia Squigglethwaite first heard Clair de Lune when her rabbit accidentally dipped its foot in a pot of molasses in her new kitchen. And in the next programme, I learn that the presenter is still the school bully.

[cloughie]

Relating to the issue of listeners having little or no advance warning of what is going to be played, I recall the weekly excitement of buying the Radio Times, and marking the works I wanted to hear, as indicated on the Radio 3 page (and Radios 3 & 4 had a page each - as much as the entire radio network now gets in total.

...and whether to risk a C90 or play safe with a C120! Those were the days my friend... why did they ever end, now all we get is Radio goo goo!

[oddoneout]

Even by Breakfast standards the 'link' I've just heard was bad. An entertaining chunk of harpsichord music(Le vertigo by Royer) wasn't even allowed to die away before having a snippet(not even a fillet let alone a 'b...chunk') of Vertigo film music slapped on the end. My first though was a technical mistake - 'play' button pushed too early - but no it was intentional.
I listen to the morning schedules so have suspect standards evidently, but I do have my limits and this breached them - and spoilt enjoyment of something new to me(the Royer, not the film music......) I now want to follow up is the instrument involved though, as it seemed particularly 'muscular' in the more dramatic sections of the piece.