The Eternal Breakfast Debate in a New Place

[Old Grumpy]

As one who partakes of all Martin Handley's Breakfasts but no others, I'll take your greetings gladly nonetheless, and return them!

Not as in "return to sender", I trust.

Happy Christmas, indeed to all Breakfast lovers and haters.

OG

[kernelbogey]

I LOATHED that 'Hello Dolly'! Absolutely everything I detest in musicals.

[french frank]

I LOATHED that 'Hello Dolly'! Absolutely everything I detest in musicals.

Didn't hear it (as usual), but I know exactly what you mean! What is it that enhances the enjoyment of Debussy after that? And is there, by the way, an obligation to mark the death of every singer?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I suppose we should be grateful that they didn't also play "Goodbye Dolly, you must leave us" as well!

[BBMmk2]

I LOATHED that 'Hello Dolly'! Absolutely everything I detest in musicals.

I did too! It ranked!

[Richard Tarleton]

I LOATHED that 'Hello Dolly'! Absolutely everything I detest in musicals.

What is it with R3 presenters and musicals? Not long ago Sarah Walker played a track (sung by Sammy Davis Jnr, so no excuse there) from Sweet Charity - a track, not to mention show, which deserved to be buried in a deep hole under tons of concrete. Did she like it? Who else did she think would enjoy it? What demographic do they think they're pleasing?

[Padraig]

What is it with R3 presenters and musicals? Not long ago Sarah Walker played a track (sung by Sammy Davis Jnr, so no excuse there) from Sweet Charity - a track, not to mention show, which deserved to be buried in a deep hole under tons of concrete. Did she like it? Who else did she think would enjoy it? What demographic do they think they're pleasing?

Gosh Richard, I have just posted a clip from youtube that I thought might interest people who contribute to World Music, or indeed anyone who likes a good performance. I dread to think what you will make of it after reading your harsh post on musicals. Thank goodness I'm not a presenter.

[LMcD]

What is it with R3 presenters and musicals? Not long ago Sarah Walker played a track (sung by Sammy Davis Jnr, so no excuse there) from Sweet Charity - a track, not to mention show, which deserved to be buried in a deep hole under tons of concrete. Did she like it? Who else did she think would enjoy it? What demographic do they think they're pleasing?

Presumably somebody thinks that extracts from musicals deserve to be played on occasions and they do not 'belong' to any of the BBC's other radio channels. I happen to think that some numbers from some musicals - I'm thinking of 'Cabaret', 'West Side Story' and some Rogers and Hammerstein pieces- have musical merit and deserve to be heard from time to time.

[kernelbogey]

What is it with R3 presenters and musicals?

A reasonable question, of course: but we can neglect to consider the power of the unseen producer....

[FF:] And is there, by the way, an obligation to mark the death of every singer?

My thought too.
I clearly remember the (much more appealing IMV) Louis Armstrong version (circa 1964?) - but I'd never even heard of Carol Channing before today.

[french frank]

I happen to think that some numbers from some musicals - I'm thinking of 'Cabaret', 'West Side Story' and some Rogers and Hammerstein pieces- have musical merit and deserve to be heard from time to time.

I'm not sure I understand the logic here: because there is music that deserves to be heard, and no other BBC station seems willing to play it, it should be played on Radio 3? It seems to me one might be inclined to argue along these lines if, on a personal level, one happens to quite like the music and enjoy hearing it.

An argument that it should be played on a programme described as 'Radio 3's classical breakfast show' is a bit harder to sustain, as far as I can see.

[I'm not sure whether this comment is as 'harsh' as Richard T's, but it does seem to point in the same direction ]

[gradus]

I'm not sure I understand the logic here: because there is music that deserves to be heard, and no other BBC station seems willing to play it, it should be played on Radio 3? It seems to me one might be inclined to argue along these lines if, on a personal level, one happens to quite like the music and enjoy hearing it.

An argument that it should be played on a programme described as 'Radio 3's classical breakfast show' is a bit harder to sustain, as far as I can see.

[I'm not sure whether this comment is as 'harsh' as Richard T's, but it does seem to point in the same direction ]

I don't know how classical music is presently defined - for example it seems to have evolved into something rather different to what might have been defined in the 1950's. In any case I quite like musicals and the addition of non-classical material as long as it is not overdone and ventures into R2 programming. At least Sammy Davis performed Sweet Charity's fugue.

[french frank]

I don't know how classical music is presently defined - for example it seems to have evolved into something rather different to what might have been defined in the 1950's.

I'm not sure how you are suggesting it has evolved. It has evolved profoundly since the end of the 19thc. But I'm not aware that it now takes in, say, (contemporary) film music, jazz, 'world' music, Northumbrian bagpipe music, reggae and others sorts of music which 'some people enjoy', on the grounds that they are enjoyed and deserve to be heard. That doesn't make it 'classical' music, so what does?

In any case I quite like musicals and the addition of non-classical material as long as it is not overdone and ventures into R2 programming. At least Sammy Davis performed Sweet Charity's fugue.

That was the point I made earlier: someone 'quite likes' some sort of music and therefore they are untroubled if it is added to Radio 3's programmes even though it 'ventures into R2 programming'. That is not, in any circumstances a legitimate argument - certainly not as long as others say that they do not at all like it. There has to be an argument which is not grounded in self-interest, on whichever side of the argument.

[gradus]

I'm not sure how you are suggesting it has evolved. It has evolved profoundly since the end of the 19thc. But I'm not aware that it now takes in, say, (contemporary) film music, jazz, 'world' music, Northumbrian bagpipe music, reggae and others sorts of music which 'some people enjoy', on the grounds that they are enjoyed and deserve to be heard. That doesn't make it 'classical' music, so what does?



That was the point I made earlier: someone 'quite likes' some sort of music and therefore they are untroubled if it is added to Radio 3's programmes even though it 'ventures into R2 programming'. That is not, in any circumstances a legitimate argument - certainly not as long as others say that they do not at all like it. There has to be an argument which is not grounded in self-interest, on whichever side of the argument.

CFM provides one example of how classical music has evolved into a source of short pieces taken from complete works, often used as birthday request tunes, mood enhancers and for 'relaxation'. It wasn't like that in the 1950's so something has evolved. I think some music can belong on either R2 or R3. My point was that each station 's character is not significantly changed by occasionally playing music notionally associated with the other.

[LMcD]

CFM provides one example of how classical music has evolved into a source of short pieces taken from complete works, often used as birthday request tunes, mood enhancers and for 'relaxation'. It wasn't like that in the 1950's so something has evolved. I think some music can belong on either R2 or R3. My point was that each station 's character is not significantly changed by occasionally playing music notionally associated with the other.

Quite! Mind you, there are some folk who think that the likes of George Gershwin and Duke Ellington are not appropriate subjects for Composer Of The Week.
In terms of musical merit, I'd rather listen to almost anything by Gershwin than most film music, but I don't think that Radio 3 is in any way 'betraying itself' by letting Matthew Sweet loose for an hour on a Saturday afternoon.
I like listening to jazz and some musicals, and I don't think I stand much chance of finding much of either other than on Radio 3, which is therefore, at least as far as I'm concerned, offering a valuable service on an occasional and modest scale.

[gurnemanz]

CFM provides one example of how classical music has evolved into a source of short pieces taken from complete works, often used as birthday request tunes, mood enhancers and for 'relaxation'. It wasn't like that in the 1950's so something has evolved. I think some music can belong on either R2 or R3. My point was that each station 's character is not significantly changed by occasionally playing music notionally associated with the other.

I remember John Peel used to play some classical items alongside his eclectic rock mix in his late night show on the BBC in the early 70s.