The Eternal Breakfast Debate in a New Place

[Serial_Apologist]

I listen for 20 minutes, switching on at 07.05 and I hear:

2 minutes (the end) of the Overture to Candide.
1 minute of the presenter telling me what it was and what I shall hear next.
3 minutes of Copland's Rodeo Hoedown
2 minutes of the presenter back announcing and reading out a tweet, then an announcement of what I shall hear next
4 minutes of Dvorak's Slavonic Dance No 1.
2 minutes of the presenter telling me something
5 minutes of Mozart's Symphony No 28 (5 minutes of first movement)

OFF

Frankly, why bother?

Quite!!! Ye gods, has it now got that bad? - No longer content with bleeding chunks it now seems people have to endure bleeding chunks of bleeding chunks if this is the norm. I have TTN on all night; if Breakfast comes on before I wake up properly, it does usually seem to feature full, albeit short, works at the start of proceedings: often something quite interesting that holds me before switching to Today.

[doversoul1]

I would just point out that CFM is not necessarily the choice that some on here assume it is, because of the adverts. Inane and undesirable as the presenter chit chat may be on the R3 morning schedules it is still a long way removed from the brainwashing of repeated adverts, and a good few of the 'new' audience are I believe those who have got fed up with said adverts. The tragedy is that the increasing quantity of trailer trash(aka adverts) R3 now sees fit to bombard us with is in effect creating the same problem, with attendant risks of losing listeners.
How to make a disaster out of an opportunity......
When will those in charge get it through their thick heads that quality, intelligence, information are not synonymous with elitist, exclusive, inaccessible? If the'average' morning listener only tunes in for 20 minutes then make those 20 minutes count

...by playing music from the infinite wealth of short works, as Through the Night does. This does not mean excluding long works.

[french frank]

Quite!!! Ye gods, has it now got that bad? - No longer content with bleeding chunks it now seems people have to endure bleeding chunks of bleeding chunks if this is the norm. I have TTN on all night; if Breakfast comes on before I wake up properly, it does usually seem to feature full, albeit short, works at the start of proceedings: often something quite interesting that holds me before switching to Today.

Well, that was my invented example, assuming that everyone who turns on after the programmes has begun will come in in the middle of something, probably a piece of music. And if they only have 20 minutes to listen, chances are they will have to switch off in the middle of a piece of music. If people have to leave for work, for example, do they still go on listening until the end of the piece that is playing, even if they don't know how long it's going to last?

And if it were to be (dream on) the middle of a symphony, why can't they just switch off and go to work and leave those who want to go on listening in peace to listen to it?

[Serial_Apologist]

...by playing music from the infinite wealth of short works, as Through the Night does. This does not mean excluding long works.

That's right! Furthermore, all the works from TTN you've listed above are in essence self-contained works, dovers, and transmitted in their entirety.

[Serial_Apologist]

Well, that was my invented example, assuming that everyone who turns on after the programmes has begun will come in in the middle of something, probably a piece of music. And if they only have 20 minutes to listen, chances are they will have to switch off in the middle of a piece of music. If people have to leave for work, for example, do they still go on listening until the end of the piece that is playing, even if they don't know how long it's going to last?

And if it were to be (dream on) the middle of a symphony, why can't they just switch off and go to work and leave those who want to go on listening in peace to listen to it?

Probably because the fact that they're leaving to go to work, thereby contributing to the social and economic wellbeing of the nation, makes them MUCH MORE IMPORTANT than those of us who have the LUXURY of being retired. Or on holiday. Or able to set our own work hours. Or unemployed. I am being sarcastic, of course.

[antongould]

But (leaving aside the falling numbers of R3 listeners that is already happening) that doesn't address the nature of choice. At the moment those of an "itsy-bitsy" preference have a choice of two national broadcasters to accommodate their inclinations - those who want something more substantial have nothing offered to them.

......

As to the nature of choice surely the vast majority of people have access to the iplayer and can listen to the immediately preceding TTN or the night before's .. ??? And are you saying R3 should give the people just moving to classical music or who are at peace with shorter pieces nothing to choose in its schedules.
As oddoneout says a lot of people wouldn't touch CFM with someone else's barge pole .... I have just compared Friday's Breakfast and EC with their CFM equivalents - R3 has far fewer film scores and similar chestnuts and a wider range of composers and NO ADVERTS. The average length of the pieces played by R3 is significantly longer than on CFM.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

As to the nature of choice surely the vast majority of people have access to the iplayer and can listen to the immediately preceding TTN or the night before's .. ???

At that time in the morning???!!! Wait for computer to turn on ... find BBC i-Player website ... find Radio Three .... find last night's Through the Night .... play. Sheesh! Thanks, guys.

And are you saying R3 should give the people just moving to classical music or who are at peace with shorter pieces nothing to choose in its schedules.

Only to the equal and opposite extent that YOU are saying that the BBC in its current schedules "should" give those listeners whom it helped "just move onto Classical Music" in the '60s, '70s, and '80s "nothing to choose" in its current schedules.

As oddoneout says a lot of people wouldn't touch CFM with someone else's barge pole .... I have just compared Friday's Breakfast and EC with their CFM equivalents - R3 has far fewer film scores and similar chestnuts and a wider range of composers and NO ADVERTS. The average length of the pieces played by R3 is significantly longer than on CFM.

Point taken - and from odd1, too - BUT it remains the fact that there still is no choice at all for those of us who want more substantial , chat-less Music. We don't even have a barge pole to not touch the current schedules with, if you see what I mean.

There is a solution that can satisfy both types of listeners: a "Radio 3Xtra" channel, in which the previous night's Through the Night is rebroadcast from 6:00 am onwards. But the Beeb is not focussed on satisfying its funders - merely on attracting listeners from other radio stations.

[french frank]

As to the nature of choice surely the vast majority of people have access to the iplayer and can listen to the immediately preceding TTN or the night before's .. ???

'Vast majority' is the key phrase. Not everyone. And 'Catch Up/Listen Again' was never conceived as a substitute for 'live' listening. Why should people be driven away - especially the 'indigenous' people?

And are you saying R3 should give the people just moving to classical music or who are at peace with shorter pieces nothing to choose in its schedules.

Something, pehaps. At the moment they have the entire peaktime morning and drive time schedule, plus other odd programmes. We come back to the same argument, just because no one else is doing it, that doesn't mean Radio 3 must. At the moment they are doing nothing to encourage people to listen to anything longer than about 15 minutes. If Classic FM listeners are content with Classic FM (bar the ads), why should Breakfast or Essential Classics listeners ever move on to Record Review, Hear and Now or Composer of the Week?

[antongould]

......
There is a solution that can satisfy both types of listeners: a "Radio 3Xtra" channel, in which the previous night's Through the Night is rebroadcast from 6:00 am onwards. But the Beeb is not focussed on satisfying its funders - merely on attracting listeners from other radio stations.

Agreed .... and accurate audience figures would be more than useful ....

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Agreed .... and accurate audience figures would be more than useful ....

[french frank]

accurate audience figures would be more than useful ....

For what?

[antongould]

For what?

The 3 shows in the ferney proposal - Breakfast, EC and the TTN repeat ....

[french frank]

The 3 shows in the ferney proposal - Breakfast, EC and the TTN repeat ....

Well, the Breakfast figures are published every quarter. Because they are calculated from samples there's quite a bit of variation from quarter to quarter, but last quarter it was 607,000 weekly average. Essential Classics is about 800,000 to 900,000 (more than Breakfast because it's 3 hours long). TTN is difficult because figures differ wildly between 00.30, 03.00 and 06.00. I know that in the depths of the night there are no more than a few thousand listening.

No idea what the LA figures are. They're not included in the RAJAR figures. They used to be published in the days of the BBC Trust, but if they still are, they're hidden somewhere where I haven't found them

[Lat-Literal]

Well, the Breakfast figures are published every quarter. Because they are calculated from samples there's quite a bit of variation from quarter to quarter, but last quarter it was 607,000 weekly average. Essential Classics is about 800,000 to 900,000 (more than Breakfast because it's 3 hours long). TTN is difficult because figures differ wildly between 00.30, 03.00 and 06.00. I know that in the depths of the night there are no more than a few thousand listening.

No idea what the LA figures are. They're not included in the RAJAR figures. They used to be published in the days of the BBC Trust, but if they still are, they're hidden somewhere where I haven't found them

How exciting.

I am often one of just a few thousand.

[Stanfordian]

How exciting.

I am often one of just a few thousand.

So am I.