The Eternal Breakfast Debate in a New Place

[Sir Velo]

The trouble is that they are aimed at two completely different audiences (which is not to say that there isn't an overlap, just that they diverge to extremes).

Maybe, in all seriousness, we need to appreciate that the tone of a station will change in the course of the day. If we think of TV channels, most broadcast a wide spectrum of programmes aimed at entirely different audiences (eg daytime TV etc), with a correspondingly different approach (think news programming/comedy/soaps on R4 for example).

Until recently, Radio 3 is probably the only major TV/radio station where the tone has remained relatively the same throughout its broadcasting day. I, for one, could forgive the inanities perpetrated during the morning for a wider playlist (and, no I don't mean more Ferry on the Merseys!) and for intelligent programming in the evening.

[cloughie]

If the unexpected at Breakfast was June Tabor's "Finisterre" ....

Now you're talking a real gem.

[Lat-Literal]

I would describe it using even stronger language!

Now you're talking a real gem.

As someone who claims to have thought of the concept of Slow TV with no acknowledgment, I'd like royalties when R3 introduces the big grin and thumbs up slots at Breakfast.

[french frank]

"Ferry Cross The Mersey" is a "Bolero". It does little either for those of us who associate closely with night time radio. If the unexpected at Breakfast was June Tabor's "Finisterre" or Leon Rosselson's "Harry's Gone Fishing" that would be an entirely different matter but it would probably lower the audience figures. CFM folk wouldn't want those things at all!!

They really don't know who their audience is. Late Junction, World on 3 and the jazz programmes (and probably Sound of Cinema) appeal to people who like most of it and can tolerate the odd piece which isn't to their taste because they know the next piece will be.

The problem with Breakfast is that too much becomes detestable to individual listeners if they're trying to reach such a broad range. The audience in the middle which is satisfied most of the time becomes a rather narrow band.

[Lat-Literal]

They really don't know who their audience is. Late Junction, World on 3 and the jazz programmes (and probably Sound of Cinema) appeal to people who like most of it and can tolerate the odd piece which isn't to their taste because they know the next piece will be.

The problem with Breakfast is that too much becomes detestable to individual listeners if they're trying to reach such a broad range. The audience in the middle which is satisfied most of the time becomes a rather narrow band.

Yes. And we have the net and YT and these forums and CDs so we all have access to our own preferences and other people's tailored recommendations. All broadcasters especially in radio are struggling in terms of sales pitch! I don't have huge problems with the music but the pop chart presentation of classical music has never convinced me. The opposite works - John Peel sounded serious not only about substantial recordings but every half baked 15 or 16 year old who had recorded something on a cassette player in his bedroom.

[french frank]

Maybe, in all seriousness, we need to appreciate that the tone of a station will change in the course of the day. If we think of TV channels, most broadcast a wide spectrum of programmes aimed at entirely different audiences (eg daytime TV etc), with a correspondingly different approach (think news programming/comedy/soaps on R4 for example).

I see what you mean but I don't really agree. The listeners clamouring to have their names read out, their voices heard for some reason &c. is, fundamentally, a different audience from one which is listening for the music itself, and to learn, and I don't feel those individuals change substantially according to the time of day. Yes, Morning on 3 and its predecessors were more relaxed: Morning Concert and Homeward Bound go back 40 years. But it's the change from radio as 'passive' listening/absorbing to 'active' - on air - participation/'sharing' which seems to grate with many. As well as the sheer slipshod general disregard for accuracy in giving out information on the more laid back programmes …

[Sir Velo]

I see what you mean but I don't really agree. The listeners clamouring to have their names read out, their voices heard for some reason &c. is, fundamentally, a different audience from one which is listening for the music itself, and to learn, and I don't feel those individuals change substantially according to the time of day.

No, of course those listeners don't change but stations change their tone according to whom they think are listening throughout the day. As I tried to make clear, every major television and/or radio channel changes its tone at various times of the day. BBC1 has light, frothy fare during the day and beefs up around time for the 6-7pm slot; Radio 4 has moments of frivolity etc during the day interspersed with the hard news. Here, we seem to expect Radio 3 to be the same throughout the day, regardless of the kind of audience that will be listening. Maybe a more realistic approach for the Friends would be to "sacrifice" the morning slot as an area which can't be saved and, instead, focus on improving the quality throughout the rest of the day.

[antongould]

I see what you mean but I don't really agree. The listeners clamouring to have their names read out, their voices heard for some reason &c. is, fundamentally, a different audience from one which is listening for the music itself, and to learn, and I don't feel those individuals change substantially according to the time of day. Yes, Morning on 3 and its predecessors were more relaxed: Morning Concert and Homeward Bound go back 40 years. But it's the change from radio as 'passive' listening/absorbing to 'active' - on air - participation/'sharing' which seems to grate with many. As well as the sheer slipshod general disregard for accuracy in giving out information on the more laid back programmes …

Do you really think there is a mass of Breakfast listeners "....clamouring to have their names read out...."?? Remember at least 2 very regular and honourable posters hereabouts have had their requests played and I don't think it was to have their names broadcast - nor IMVVHO does this apply to the vast, vast majority of other people making requests......

[french frank]

Here, we seem to expect Radio 3 to be the same throughout the day, regardless of the kind of audience that will be listening.

That is losing sight of the fact that Radio 3 has deliberately changed its tone, style and content in order to attract the kind of listener who likes 'light, frothy fare'. That's the basic argument against Radio 3. People will say that it has to do it 'in order to survive', as if this will somehow increase its audience. But it hasn't done that. As at the last figures that were accidentally(?) made public, it hadn't even reduced the station's average age.

Radio listening for all stations has a similar pattern throughout the day. Most radio listeners want to listen in the morning - up to about midday: that's when the biggest audiences are found. Why on earth should anyone be expected to ' "sacrifice" the morning slot' if that is when they have always listened and when they still want to listen because they're being pushed out by agenda-driven managers/executive, most of whom have no interest whatsoever in serious cultural broadcasting? There's no sense to it because it is simply serving the same audience for whom Classic FM caters.

[french frank]

Do you really think there is a mass of Breakfast listeners "....clamouring to have their names read out...."?? Remember at least 2 very regular and honourable posters hereabouts have had their requests played and I don't think it was to have their names broadcast - nor IMVVHO does this apply to the vast, vast majority of other people making requests......

But it isn't just about requesting music, it's tweeting or texting about anything (much of which is of more interest to themselves than to others). Someone on the R3 Facebook made the point some while back that what she wanted was for Radio 3 to choose music that was judged worth hearing, and to create content in a coherent way; not just hearing what listeners wanted to hear becuse it was about water, or flying, or going on holiday - whatever had been thought up as the topic for the week. It all becomes an extension of social media - which is wildly popular with many people. But being 'popular' isn't the primary aim of Radio 3.

It has always considered its role as being to lead, not to follow.

[teamsaint]

a dialogue between customer and provider ( or whatever terms you want to use) must be worth having though.

The collective knowledge, expertise, and enthusiasm of the R3 audience is surely worth tapping into ,in a worthwhile way?

Perhaps the multimedia world affords an opportunity to shift the balance between the leader and the led, customer and service provider, in a really positive way.

Although what that might have to do with Breakfast, ( " Kick off" used in the first 10 seconds that I heard today) is anybody's guess.

[french frank]

a dialogue between customer and provider ( or whatever terms you want to use) must be worth having though.

It certainly is, and to some small extent it could happen on the old BBC messageboards - think of Rob and Jonathan discussing CD Masters with their audience, with mutual benefit. And the producer of TTN occasionally popped up with a piece of information. Ironically, the new shiny Facebook doesn't work in that way. I asked ahinton's question about H Searle this morning but no one has bothered to respond (they seldom do).

The collective knowledge, expertise, and enthusiasm of the R3 audience is surely worth tapping into ,in a worthwhile way?

A precious resource, I would think, of which little is made at all. Asking for requests, or suggestions for a theme, or quiz questions, or spontaneous tweets isn't going to provide much by way of knowledge and expertise. In fact, on air isn't the best means of doing it anyway, I would have thought.

[antongould]

Don't tell ff, as it will only spoil her Bank Holiday weekend, but we have had a 10th wedding anniversary and a cat walking on a clock radio alarm .......

[Nick Armstrong]

Don't tell ff, as it will only spoil her Bank Holiday weekend, but we have had a 10th wedding anniversary and a cat walking on a clock radio alarm .......

Why do you put yourself through it, anton?

One can only imagine that Lady Gould elbows you out of the conjugal bower of bliss at 6.30 sharp and there's nothing better to do while you grind the beans and construct her ladyship's kedgeree

[Old Grumpy]

Don't tell ff, as it will only spoil her Bank Holiday weekend, but we have had a 10th wedding anniversary and a cat walking on a clock radio alarm .......

And Henry VIII (and all that) kicking off...

... thought he was more into real tennis than football!

OG