The Eternal Breakfast Debate in a New Place

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

That's a very impressive outline, french frank.

If you have the time, go for it. Worth squillions to them that is - some consultant or other would charge squillions, like I said.

But I doubt whether any consultant would do the job quite so well as ff.

[Frances_iom]

I still find the suggestion that Radio 3 is "morphing into Radio 2" as put by someone previously, just silly, they are quite distinct in my view.

It was a simplification - R3 is moving towards R2 as it was a few years ago - ie chat with easy listening music - R2 is however also on its own trajectory towards an audience post R1 teenage pop but still mostly pop/chart music based (ie the 'laddish' audience from 18-30 beloved of advertisers as they usually have considerable disposable income) - recall all the posts on the old R3 board as banned R2 posters attempted to move their battle between the under 30's and the 'old fogeys' onto R3 MBs

[Suffolkcoastal]

Worryingly to date my R3 survey figures so far for 2011 are showing an even greater emphasis on 'popular' composers than the previous two years. I can't believe we've had 30 Slavonic dances and nearly as many Hungarian Dances already this year and we aren't even quite a quarter of the way through the year, Johann Strauss II also seems to be very much in favour so far. The trouble is that R3 is driving away its loyal 'core' listeners from much of its schedule, and while this current strategy may bring in some new listeners these won't necessarily hang around. It is like running a course, if you keep over emphasising the same beginners repetoire or constantly 'cheapen' the content, those who join will get bored as they decide that the course doesn't have much to offer, the experienced ones will leave through frustration with going over the same things, eventually just leaving a mediocre course with a few participants who just want to 'plod along' going over the same 'safe' ideas.

As an aside, curiously La Valse hasn't been broadcast at all this year, has it been decided that it is now too long at around 15 minutes? It's place has been taken by Alborado del Gracioso which is receiving two outings this week in its Piano & Orchestral guises (that will be 10 occurences so far this year).

[french frank]

Is this a published document one can access on-line?

Yes, following the recent BBC Trust review of Radio 3, the latest issue of the service licence (February 2011) is available here.

But beware: this document is supposed to be written by the Trust to keep some control over what BBC management does and doesn't do, in the interests of the public. But it seems that anything BBC management doesn't like gets airbrushed out, e.g. following complaints that, in spite of management deciding to drop the R3 messageboards, the service licence made specific mention of messageboards. No problem: management have axed the messageboards already? - we'll delete all mention of messageboards. Sorted. Gee, thanks, Trust

[amateur51]

I knew you'd take it in good spirit!

(I swear I once saw a market stall with a cardboard label offering SOX'S.)

I swear I once saw a sign in a Liverpool market offering SHEEPS GOOLIE'S

[Norfolk Born]

Back in the 1970's, the firm of patent agents for which I then worked announced that the Annual Dinner would be cancelled because of the disruption arising from the miner's strike. He must have been a very industrious chap!

[mercia]

when Radio 3 went from broadcasting 7.30pm concerts to the present Performance on 3 at 7pm format (whenever that was), what were the reasons given for that change, please? (can anyone remember?)

[french frank]

when Radio 3 went from broadcasting 7.30pm concerts to the present Performance on 3 at 7pm format (whenever that was), what were the reasons given for that change, please? (can anyone remember?)

Well, the explanation was that it would give half an hour more classical music (remember Artist in Focus, which didn't last too long?). Then the repeat of CotW was brought forward.

The format (studio-based presentation of recorded bits) was to keep tighter control on timing and avoid overruns. It would appear that this is no longer an issue.

Edit: To clarify, I meant 'half an hour more classical music' in the evenings.

[Eudaimonia]

I'm still wondering whether to devote an even larger slice of my time to the question of Radio 3 by writing a paper on it

You mean for a peer-reviewed journal, or on behalf of the FoR3? Either way, I'd think if you want it to have an impact, don't write it for BBC management, write it for the media. I'm sure you could find an angle or two to highlight that would catch their interest and get you a great deal of exposure. Rightly or wrongly, you're already being characterised as a "listeners' watchdog group", so what would you have to lose?

Something to think about, at any rate!

[Eudaimonia]

RW is a total disaster - has anything he has touched on R3 been a success ?

The Proms.

[french frank]

You mean for a peer-reviewed journal, or on behalf of the FoR3?

The one thing that I've always wanted FoR3 to achieve is to get a widespread debate going with those involved in music and the arts. Whether the BBC participated would be up to them, but concerns have been expressed much wider than by us, the listeners who are most immediately involved.

We have to get it thrashed out as to whether Radio 3 needs to court this wider audience - and effectively target its programming on that audience to persuade them to 'sample' it rather than on a serious, arts oriented audience. And what 'moving with the times' means in the context of a service like Radio 3. To place our arguments against theirs.

[antongould]

I really do hope you write your paper, I feel it would be an invaluable document - especially to the Beeb if they would only see it. But one point I have tried, feebly, to raise before. How do you feel R3 "gets" it's audience if not through Private Passions, Breakfast and such non bleeding chunks programmes. Is it through a population raised on classical music? If so is that wide enough?

[Bax-of-Delights]

Indeed, there is a need for a serious and well-argued statement concerning the historical development and intellectual drive of R3. Has it, as would appear increasingly to be the case in a proportion of its output, moved away from its role as "serious" (I hate these epithets as they signify an implied elitism that tends to be flung back at the questioner) purveyor of the "classical" (there's another!) arts? Does this indicate a growing general, societal, disinterest in the higher arts and that the minority (as we have always been) interests of the R3 listeners are now being further eroded by the unreleting hand of time (we're dropping off the twig) and the perception by the broadcasters that inclusivity now requires some measure of lowest common denominator offering? I would argue that this approach serves no master with core listeners increasingly not bothering to listen to R3 - that is certainly the situation for myself - and "new" listeners only dipping in and out/to and from CFM. I can see no discernible difference between the 5 hours of Breakfast/Classical Collection and CFM's offerings. Before I switched off at 8.15 this morning there were three tired old warhorses (in terms of overplayed) trotted out, one after the other:
Hoedown: Copland's Rodeo
Moonlight Sonata (first movement)
Alborada: Ravel.

[barber olly]

The format (studio-based presentation of recorded bits) was to keep tighter control on timing and avoid overruns. It would appear that this is no longer an issue.
[/I]

Presumably with the need for the BBC to cut costs, longer time given to live concerts means that other fill-in programmes need not be made.

[french frank]

I really do hope you write your paper, I feel it would be an invaluable document - especially to the Beeb if they would only see it. But one point I have tried, feebly, to raise before. How do you feel R3 "gets" it's audience if not through Private Passions, Breakfast and such non bleeding chunks programmes.

There doesn't appear to have been any evidence, c 1990, that R3 was losing audience, and there is nil evidence that it has gained audience by 'changing its style'. It may attract some, it loses others.

As a precise answer (from my own perspective) I would say that Private Passions (which I gave up listening to because it became more celebritified and less musically interesting) is/was itself an 'entry point. A very simple, upmarket version of Desert Island Discs where non professionals who were lovers of classical (mainly) music talked about this 'passion' and selected interesting pieces of music rather than the old warhorses (I remember particularly John Bird and Frances Partridge - I think she was the one who introduced me to Metamorphosen, a change from one of the Four Last Songs).

I have also tried feebly pointing out that Breakfast increased the number of pieces from about 14-17 in 3 hours to 24-27 (highest number I noticed was 31), compared with Mo3. So no need to have symphonies of record length, but similarly no need for bleeding chunks. They play four different pieces, averaging 9 minutes each but claim that a complete string quartet of four movements, of average length 9 minutes, requires too much concentration for that time in the morning. Again my view, all that's needed is a music programme (no chat), preferably no longer than 90 minutes, playing a selection of about 8 pieces. Is that so hard for a newcomer to cope with? They don't have to write an exam on it afterwards

The concept of In Tune is fine, though I think it needs a makeover. Rotating presenters would dispel a lot of the criticism.

Is it through a population raised on classical music? If so is that wide enough?

I started listening to R3 full time (having finally deserted R4) when I was in my forties. No classical music at all in our household, just a handful of warhorses (about six) in my teens when my older brother started to take an interest. But I concede there is a bit more of a struggle now. I've just ordered a book (Amazon £0.01) called Radio Head: Up and Down the Dial of British Radio by John Osborne, because I happened to pick it up in a bookshop yesterday. He has ten pages on Classic FM/Radio 3 of which I glanced at a couple of pages. I've mainly bought it because I was flattered by a brief mention of Friends of Radio 3 , without irony or insult - that may lie up ahead, of course! - but also for an example of a mind totally closed to classical music ('I'm not, never have been and never will be interested in classical music').

There will be some people who will never be interested - should one even try to attract them? If so, why? - there are many other kinds of music. There will be others with more curiosity, some of whom will become genuinely interested. What we said in our submission to the Trust was that if the BBC wants to attract more people to classical music, it should put more on mainstream television where the potential audience is, not alter what Radio 3 does in order to attract any new listeners regardless of their level of interest.

Worst of both worlds is what they're doing now: vigorously promoting Radio 3 all over the BBC and wider media with trails, gimmicks and publicity stunts. Everyone urged to come and 'sample' the station, and the level set low enough to rival Classic FM and capture the widest possible audience. The alternative method is to forget about chasing the biggest audiences on BBC Two and have more concerts, recitals and serious music programmes - and guide the audience which enjoys those programmes over to R3.