The Eternal Breakfast Debate in a New Place

[James Wonnacott]

Or are they just spoiling Radio 3?

Yes indeed.

[HARRIET HAVARD]

According to Petroch when introducing part of the Grofe Grand Canyon Suite on Breakfast on 23rd January, Grofe was inspired to write the piece after driving across the Canyon in 1916, in an ancient Jeep. Really? The piece was actually writen in the 1930's....And the term Jeep (actually GP), and the vehicle that gives us the name, didn't appear until the early 1940's. I think we have realised for a long time that the "guff" that is given out on this show is lifted straight from Wikipedia. Seems now that even that is too much trouble, so they just make it up as they go along!

[HARRIET HAVARD]

Yes indeed.

A few words of advice then. Steer clear of Breakfast and Essential Classics- they will do nothing to improve your condition.

[french frank]

According to Petroch when introducing part of the Grofe Grand Canyon Suite on Breakfast on 23rd January, Grofe was inspired to write the piece after driving across the Canyon in 1916, in an ancient Jeep. Really? The piece was actually writen in the 1930's....And the term Jeep (actually GP), and the vehicle that gives us the name, didn't appear until the early 1940's. I think we have realised for a long time that the "guff" that is given out on this show is lifted straight from Wikipedia. Seems now that even that is too much trouble, so they just make it up as they go along!

Isn't it possible for him to have remembered this experience and composed the music later? As you say, he didn't say it was composed then. 'Jeep' would be an anachronism, though perhaps some early vehicle of a similar kind?

[Anna]

Wiki has nothing about him driving across the Grand Canyon but NPR Music does, and it says:
"In 1916, an itinerant pianist in his 20s strapped gas cans to a vintage jeep and drove across the Arizona desert to watch the sun rise over the Grand Canyon. More than 40 years later, Ferde Grofe described what he saw in a radio interview.

"I first saw the dawn because we got there the night before and camped. I was spellbound in the silence, you know, because as it got lighter and brighter then you could hear the birds chirping and nature coming to life. All of a sudden, bingo! There it was, the sun. I couldn't hardly describe it in words because words would be inadequate."

So I guess Petroc listens to NPR Music or maybe he's heard the radio interview!

[french frank]

More than 40 years later, Ferde Grofe described what he saw in a radio interview.

Obviously a memorable experience - long after he'd composed the suite!

About sources: I checked Wikipedia too, and found nothing; more to the point, I checked my 1980 Grove where there was no entry at all for Grofé (I imagine he's been included in the updates). For composers who aren't well-known, presenters have to get their introductory material from somewhere: CD liners notes, yes, Wikipedia from time to time . I don't think that sentences should be read out word for word from anywhere, without some attribution, even if, as with Wikipedia, there isn't a copyright problem. Wiki should (in my opinion) be used as a quick fact checker for something one intended to say anyway (was it 1915 or 1916? What's the exact title? &c).

I don't think I would have anything more to say than that (except, thank you, Anna, for the valuable information).


Add: Actually, there are nine separate references if you search on 'In 1916, an itinerant pianist in his 20s strapped gas cans to a vintage jeep', followed by adverts for vintage gas cans.

[Bryn]

Wiki has nothing about him driving across the Grand Canyon but NPR Music does, and it says:
"In 1916, an itinerant pianist in his 20s strapped gas cans to a vintage jeep and drove across the Arizona desert to watch the sun rise over the Grand Canyon. More than 40 years later, Ferde Grofe described what he saw in a radio interview.

"I first saw the dawn because we got there the night before and camped. I was spellbound in the silence, you know, because as it got lighter and brighter then you could hear the birds chirping and nature coming to life. All of a sudden, bingo! There it was, the sun. I couldn't hardly describe it in words because words would be inadequate."

So I guess Petroc listens to NPR Music or maybe he's heard the radio interview!

Whichever, he is clearly more diligent in his background reading in preparation for the programme than some here seem to be.

'Careful with that axe, Eugene'.

Radio 3's Breakfast still won't drag me from the Today Programme, however.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

driving to the Grand canyon mebbe, but across? ...
apropos of nowt much there was a brilliant book about the Grand Canyon [and much else] that is alas now out of circulation as a new book but if you see it on the second hand shelves it is a brilliant read:

The River That Flows Uphill: A Journey from the Big Bang to the Big Brain

it would appear that 2nd hand copies for under £6 are available on the river ...

[Bryn]

driving to the Grand canyon mebbe, but across? ...
apropos of nowt much there was a brilliant book about the Grand Canyon [and much else] that is alas now out of circulation as a new book but if you see it on the second hand shelves it is a brilliant read:

The River That Flows Uphill: A Journey from the Big Bang to the Big Brain

it would appear that 2nd hand copies for under £6 are available on the river ...

The, um, river people, claim to have the paperback edition new, in stock, for around £17 including p&p. To some extent you can 'try before you buy' via their "Look Inside!" feature.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

try the book and don't mind my inadequacies

[James Wonnacott]

Oh, don't worry Harriet, I've been avoiding them for years now.

[Old Grumpy]

"In 1916, an itinerant pianist in his 20s strapped gas cans to a vintage jeep and drove across the Arizona desert to watch the sun rise over the Grand Canyon.

I was slightly alarmed by this...

until I realised what was meant in the context! :duh:

OG

[subcontrabass]

more to the point, I checked my 1980 Grove where there was no entry at all for Grofé (I imagine he's been included in the updates).

Oxford Music Online gives two versions of an article by Jim Farrington: one from The Grove Dictionary of American Music (dated 16 October 2013), the other, shorter and undated, is from Grove Music Online. There is also an archived article by James Lincoln Collier from The New Grove Dictionary of Jazz, 2nd Edition. None of these makes any reference to an actual visit to the Grand Canyon.

[french frank]

Oxford Music Online gives two versions of an article by Jim Farrington: one from The Grove Dictionary of American Music (dated 16 October 2013), the other, shorter and undated, is from Grove Music Online. There is also an archived article by James Lincoln Collier from The New Grove Dictionary of Jazz, 2nd Edition. None of these makes any reference to an actual visit to the Grand Canyon.

Thanks. It does mean that in some cases one has to find scraps of information from somewhere (our library has given up subscribing to GMO - I was possibly the only person using it).

[Ted Eakins]

Oh no! She's back.