The Eternal Breakfast Debate in a New Place

[teamsaint]

Perhaps the members here could send in suggestions? I've just followed the Spotify playlist (despite the usual problem with artist/composer tags), so if you'd like to educate me, now's your chance. The very best of British luck to you.

I did. Adam Zero, an all time fave of mine.

sure you don't need educating, but here it is anyway.

[french frank]

I know that all points of view are valid, but I'm not sure it was necessary for R3 to read out a tweet which suggested that 'French baroque' music could be played before 7 ("If you have to play that stuff, get it over good and early"). But perhaps they were short of tweets this morning?

[Don Petter]

Perhaps the members here could send in suggestions? I've just followed the Spotify playlist (despite the usual problem with artist/composer tags), so if you'd like to educate me, now's your chance. The very best of British luck to you.

Well. I sent in one, at this juncture, but it's been ignored, apart from the automatic reply.


[It was for Gordon Crosse's Concerto da Camera. Perhaps that was too far from the mainstream, or they checked with CFM, who hadn't heard of it or him. ]

[french frank]

Well. I sent in one, at this juncture, but it's been ignored

This is a point that is worth a whole debate (at least, it would interest me ): what is the attraction of sending in requests and/or hearing other people's requests announced and played?

Are we now too idealistic in supposing that anyone at Radio 3 is capable of putting together a fresh, interesting playlist every day, without repeating their, or other people's, favourites at depressingly regular intervals? 'Va tacito' (wrongly translated as 'Go silently'!) which was was played yesterday is a 'Nessun dorma' aria, along with 'When I am laid in earth'. It was alo played on 15 March and Google throws up clues that has been played more often.

We are certainly not too idealistic in supposing that Radio 3 doesn't need to resort to single movements; but one can guess the reason - nothing to do with early mornings and people being too busy to concentrate for longer than 6 minutes: this is educating the target audience which is unfamiliar with whole symphonies, but might be tempted to try if a few enticing extracts are played. That would fit the BBC's statement: that Breakfast is a programme PRIMARILY aimed at the neophyte audience rather than listeners with a longer experience of classical music. But a) have they got the balance right? Indeed, b) is it even possible to balance the playlist/content in a way that will satisfy both audiences? Or c) do the more experienced listeners actually LIKE to hear their favourites popping up regularly? Dvořák's Slavonic Dances also on yesterday - were they last year's champions?

[Or d) is Karl Jenkins now fully integrated into Radio 3's 'playlist'?]

[doversoul1]

This is a point that is worth a whole debate (at least, it would interest me ): what is the attraction of sending in requests and/or hearing other people's requests announced and played?

To hear your name read out.

I am sure this is the essential attraction of request programmes. Request is a strategy for building up an audience and to listners, hearing other people’s request is only consequential. I am all for R3 production teams to ask the listeners to send in suggestions which will be reflected on to the programmes. A special request programme once a year may be a good way of saying thank you for all your suggestions, as CD Review does. If music is the real interest for both the listeners and the station, this should be perfectly good enough.

I can’t remember when I last listened to Breakfast or Essential Classics, but by reading the posts on the Forum, I guess what R3 is doing is offering classical music as an alternative to popular / easy listening music. If more people are listening to these programmes, it means that more people are listening to classical music, which then means Radio 3 is successfully educating people where classical music is concerned. Discuss…

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

To hear your name read out.

I am sure this is the essential attraction of request programmes. Request is a strategy for building up an audience and to listners, hearing other people’s request is only consequential. I am all for R3 production teams to ask the listeners to send in suggestions which will be reflected on to the programmes. A special request programme once a year may be a good way of saying thank you for all your suggestions, as CD Review does. If music is the real interest for both the listeners and the station, this should be perfectly good enough.

I can’t remember when I last listened to Breakfast or Essential Classics, but by reading the posts on the Forum, I guess what R3 is doing is offering classical music as an alternative to popular / easy listening music. If more people are listening to these programmes, it means that more people are listening to classical music, which then means Radio 3 is successfully educating people where classical music is concerned. Discuss…

Imagine anything more degrading than having your name read out by a simpering Breakfast announcer.

[Don Petter]

Imagine anything more degrading than having your name read out by a simpering Breakfast announcer.

Hell! I never thought of that possibility. I never listen to the programme and just thought from what I was reading here that they were building a 'Best of British' list on their website for which one could make a sensible suggestion. Thank god they didn't like it, then.

[french frank]

If more people are listening to these programmes, it means that more people are listening to classical music, which then means Radio 3 is successfully educating people where classical music is concerned. Discuss…

Unfortunately, it's impossible for us - or even Radio 3 - to make meaningful comparisons between a) a 6am-9am breakfast programme (Mo3); a 7am-10am breakfast programme (Breakfast); and a 6.30am to 9am breakfast programme (Breakfast Mk II). Patterns throughout the day vary so the length of programme and the start and ending times make a difference.

Similarly with CD Masters (10am-11.30);CD Masters/Classical Collection (10am until midday); and Essential Classics (9am until midday).

It's easy to claim that, e.g. Essential Classics is doing better than CD Masters because it goes on for an hour longer and it begins at 9am - which just about hits the peak morning listening time for Radio 3.

The tiny scraps that I managed to glean suggest that Classical Collection didn't have as many listeners as CD Masters (perhaps that's why it was dropped?). And the current figures for Breakfast suggest that it has a lower reach than Morning on 3 had between 6.30am and 9am, since the first half hour's listening (6 - 6.30) would have had relatively few listeners. The last two years of Breakfast, for example, have averaged 633,000 per week, whereas Mo3 in its last two years 2005, 2006, averaged 780,000. Given the listening pattern of the Radio 3 audience between 6am and 9am it is extremely unlikely that that 150,000 listeners were the 6am-6.30am audience which Mo3 had but Breakfast doesn't have.

The graph below shows the Mo3 listening on a weekday (red line is for 2004) and it's evident that the programme's audience had hardly built up at all by 6.30am:

[Zucchini]

The last two years of Breakfast, for example, have averaged 633,000 per week, whereas Mo3 in its last two years 2005, 2006, averaged 780,000. Given the listening pattern of the Radio 3 audience between 6am and 9am it is extremely unlikely that that 150,000 listeners were the 6am-6.30am audience which Mo3 had but Breakfast doesn't have.

Audience figures measure the audience within timebands, not the audience to programmes:

In 2005/2006 your gross audience of 780,000 refers to 7.00 - 10.00
From March (Q1) 2012 your gross audience of 633,000 refers to 6.30 - 9.00

The 2012 adjustment to timeband brings it into line with the transmission times of 'Breakfast'. The relatively high value 9.00 - 10.00 hour has been lost and replaced by the pretty rubbishy 6.30 - 7.00 half hour.

No wonder the ten year old figures are higher. It couldn't be otherwise. The recent performance of 'Breakast' is a bit wobbly but far from a catastrophe.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Off topic, I know, but that graph is very similar to the one Jerrold Northrop Moore drew to illustrate Elgar's typical melodic line.

[french frank]

Audience figures measure the audience within timebands, not the audience to programmes:
[B]
In 2005/2006 your gross audience of 780,00 refers to 7.00 - 10.00

You are correct on the timings. For the reasons given in the first paragraph, the figures of 633,000 and 780,000 aren't comparable and I withdraw that suggestion. The last 8 quarters of 2005/06 (Mo3) were the only ones available for that programme.

However, taking the figures up to Q3 2011, Breakfast did have the same timing (7-10), and average 779,000 (I'm doing the calculations in a panic now - please verify!). So no obvious sign of change for the better in the first 4-5 years.

The recent performance of 'Breakast' is a bit wobbly but far from a catastrophe.

Not a catastrophe in terms of a big drop but not a resounding success for a policy that was supposed to 'broaden the audience'? Though the suspicion has always been that part of the strategy was to gain new listeners and kick out old ones.

[french frank]

The other point is that, whether the period 9-10 is included or not, it is a time when more people were turning off than turning on. And if people don't switch off, it's more than likely that is because it isn't the junction between two programmes. In other words, I would assume that more people would turn ON at 9am to hear the beginning of Essential Classics, than turn on to hear the end of Mo3/Breakfast. All incalculables which make it more than difficult to make like-for-like comparisons.

[french frank]

I know she wouldn't have written the headline, but for CB-H fans everywhere:


This from a public school/Cambridge/music college educated actress/BBC presenter daughter of a casting agent and a BBC arts boss. I doubt you get more élite than that. Anyway, there you have it: CB-H has raised the audience of Breakfast 23% after taking over from SM-P; and SM-P has raised the audience of The Choir by 20% since taking over. Yet somehow Radio 3 has only struggled to raise its audience by less than 5% (Zucchini will correct me if I'm wrong )

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

In Spain, people go to watch bulls being slaughtered for fun in arenas. The ancient Romans watched people being eaten by lions in similar circumstances. Over 2 million copies of The Sun are sold every day. Radio 2 has more listeners than Radio 3.

There's a pattern here. But I do wish they'd change the record and stop harping on about elitism. I've been watching the FA Cup Final since 5.00 p.m. And both teams are packed full of elite players.

The opposite of elitism should not be trash, but that does seem to be the thinking behind CB-H's little missive.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I do agree with Alison Balsom about musical education.