The Eternal Breakfast Debate in a New Place

[Ein Heldenleben]

To put it the other way round, what earthly chance would there be of Shelley influencing any teenager these days, outside the public school system? How many have even heard of him? This disconnect has happened relatively quickly. But once the connection's gone...

Your focus on the need for accidental exposure - far less likely these days - is very much to the point.

I’m sorry to keep contradicting you but quite a reasonable chance in fact.

This June 2022 A level paper has questions on the Romantic Poets and Shelley is named

https://qualifications.pearson.com/content/dam/pdf/A-Level/English-Literature/2015/Exam-materials/9et0-03-que-20220621.pdf

The real dumbing down is in the Novel or more accurately “Prose” section.

[Serial_Apologist]

I take your medicine on The Beatles, though I'd say that underneath all these borrowings, at root they are culturally aligned with American traditions over and above European ones - thus their popularity in the USA, notoriously insular when it comes to popular taste in music.

Mutual influences between American and British musical cultures, both "high art" and popular, are quite complex and contain a multiplicity of contradictions and knock-on consequences both ways: rhythmic re-invigoration in European art music as our composers re-discovered the secular music of the pre-Baroque (court and village green); a fusion of European harmony with the broken African rhythmic heritage informing early Afro-American forms - spirituals, gospel, ragtime, then jazz and its influence on musical theatre - which contemporaneously reverberated through anti-romantic aesthetic trends in Europe reflecting the desire to escape puritanical C19 restrictions on individual lifestyle.

Inevitably American cultural values would impact in English-speaking Britain as a leading Dollar cultural signifier for the emergent mass consumer society, but it is interesting to note the longer-term influence of the English pastoral school of the early C20, by way of that very folk culture in more urbanised guise as a continuum from Cecil Sharpe's ruralist perspective and subsequent links to America right through to Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger. While one should not underestimate these cross-Atlantic impacts on the character and influence back here of American Rock music and its alternative (to commercialism) society implications for the development of new jazz (and free improvisation, largely neglected outside the organ loft until the experimental and post-serial avant-gardes of the 60s and 70s) right through to Punk Rock. If any musical form has managed to perpetuate collective creativity, musician/audience involvement beyond issues of class and identity, and the progressive (in its broad consciousness advancing meaning) in C20 art music, it has been jazz.

[french frank]

Ooh I’m going to nitpick there and say that in my view RVW’s and Britten’s folk song reworkings, extended integrations and arrangements are very much original compositions.

That was the point I was making. They were influenced by folk music/songs (as were Bartók and Schubert) but their own original contribution created something that was no longer folk music: it ranks alongside the rest of their work. Contrariwise, McCartney may have been influenced by classical (or other) composers but those songs don't become classical; nor do his classical compositions attract much interest in the classical world.

They recomposed “folk” music and indeed in the case of RVW wrote original neo “folk” compositions . Folk is a notoriously catch all title after all.

But you feel compelled to write "folk" music rather than folk music

And what tunes :

Prof . Wilfrid Mellers on Linden Lea “ it was a small creation of genius with the pristine flavour of a genuine folk song . Having heard it one seems to have known the tune all one’s life.”

I agree with that. I find it ironical that the composer of The Lark in the Clear Air music is anonymous whereas the 'original' (= earliest known) words are by the poet Samuel Ferguson and are a bit ... 'workaday' ("Dear thoughts are in my mind ...")

[Ein Heldenleben]

That was the point I was making. They were influenced by folk music/songs (as were Bartók and Schubert) but their own original contribution created something that was no longer folk music: it ranks alongside the rest of their work. Contrariwise, McCartney may have been influenced by classical (or other) composers but those songs don't become classical; nor do his classical compositions attract much interest in the classical world.



But you feel compelled to write "folk" music rather than folk music



I agree with that. I find it ironical that the composer of The Lark in the Clear Air music is anonymous whereas the 'original' (= earliest known) words are by the poet Samuel Ferguson and are a bit ... 'workaday' ("Dear thoughts are in my mind ...")

I put “folk “ in quotes because no one really knows what it means. There’s a tradition of semi inprovised anonymity . But I suspect some were indeed composed by individuals or even compositionally “tarted up “ by transcribers like RVW , Sharp and Baring Gould . I would classify all three as (partly )folk composers. I would also classify Land of Hope and Glory , Rule Brittania and I Vow to thee as composed national English “folk “tunes because of the popular traction they have achieved , their folk like melodic simplicity - and in the case of the latter it’s even modal.

[Master Jacques]

I’m sorry to keep contradicting you but quite a reasonable chance in fact.

This June 2022 A level paper has questions on the Romantic Poets and Shelley is named.

Thank you - this is fascinating reading.

There are precisely two (optional) questions on the romantic poets, I see, one on Keats and another with Blake (one of the Songs of Experience) and Shelley as the alternatives. Given that just four (short and innocuous) lyric poems by Shelley are part of the reading list, the prosecution rests. It's clear that studying Shelley is pretty much a minor option.

This is hardly a quorum to inspire anyone to delve deeper into his work, at the age they need to. He's a young person's poet, and unless you get involved with the big stuff such as Prometheus Unbound early on in your life, you're never going to. The syllabus is very big indeed on Christina Rossetti, I see, with a few short baubles of Tennyson and Browning and Mrs B. ... but it doesn't include any Matthew Arnold at all.

[french frank]

There are precisely two (optional) questions on the romantic poets, I see, one on Keats and another with Blake (one of the Songs of Experience) and Shelley as the alternatives. Given that just four (short and innocuous) lyric poems by Shelley are part of the reading list, the prosecution rests. It's clear that studying Shelley is pretty much a minor option.

Yes, and in any case the influence I was meaning was the musical influence of one composer on another composer. How many teenagers are writing poetry influenced by Shelley?

EH says of 'folk music' that "no one really knows what it means". Just as no one knows what 'classical music' means. Nor 'world music'. In fact not everyone would agree on what 'music' is, but unless one can have a measure of agreement on what might constitute some basic attributes to start with, discussion is really impossible.

Grove is interesting on 'folk music'. I don't think it's saying that people don't know what it means, merely that different cultures and different times produce very different types of music. Whether many people would think of the song that John Brown of Halifax composed yesterday as being a folk song, I don't know. It gets back to the old question: it depends what you mean by a folk song.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Thank you - this is fascinating reading.

There are precisely two (optional) questions on the romantic poets, I see, one on Keats and another with Blake (one of the Songs of Experience) and Shelley as the alternatives. Given that just four (short and innocuous) lyric poems by Shelley are part of the reading list, the prosecution rests. It's clear that studying Shelley is pretty much a minor option.

This is hardly a quorum to inspire anyone to delve deeper into his work, at the age they need to. He's a young person's poet, and unless you get involved with the big stuff such as Prometheus Unbound early on in your life, you're never going to. The syllabus is very big indeed on Christina Rossetti, I see, with a few short baubles of Tennyson and Browning and Mrs B. ... but it doesn't include any Matthew Arnold at all.

Problem is I don’t think Shelley is much of a poet. And Ode To The West Wind (the exam question ) is a terrible poem.

[teamsaint]

Yes, and in any case the influence I was meaning was the musical influence of one composer on another composer. How many teenagers are writing poetry influenced by Shelley?

EH says of 'folk music' that "no one really knows what it means". Just as no one knows what 'classical music' means. Nor 'world music'. In fact not everyone would agree on what 'music' is, but unless one can have a measure of agreement on what might constitute some basic attributes to start with, discussion is really impossible.

Grove is interesting on 'folk music'. I don't think it's saying that people don't know what it means, merely that different cultures and different times produce very different types of music. Whether many people would think of the song that John Brown of Halifax composed yesterday as being a folk song, I don't know. It gets back to the old question: it depends what you mean by a folk song.

I would think that ( British Isles ) Folk Song is one of the easier recognised musical genres to pin down ?Most commonly born of either a storytelling tradition , played in traditional or established idioms, and on traditional acoustic instruments .
i have probably missed something out :)

[french frank]

I would think that ( British Isles ) Folk Song is one of the easier recognised musical genres to pin down?

And predominantly songs and dances i.e. participative genres? And story-telling of the 'A maid there was in Portsmouth Town' or 'Now Johnny was a Cobbler' or 'Twas the Closing of the Steel works' ...' A more limited range of instruments? A few random suggestions ...

[Ein Heldenleben]

I would think that ( British Isles ) Folk Song is one of the easier recognised musical genres to pin down ?Most commonly born of either a storytelling tradition , played in traditional or established idioms, and on traditional acoustic instruments .
i have probably missed something out :)

Well - usually modal , often pentatonic , often in narrative form , full of oral formulaic expressions and repetitions. All things that make it easier to sing and remember.
Also as I can confess an absolute television ratings killer. But that’s TV’s problem not folk’s.

Completely Co-incidentally there’s a rather good COTW on Ruth Crawford Seeger on this week . The “braided hair “ revelations are quite extraordinary. But I’d heard that Ewan McColl was a very tricky customer. What is it about male folk singers ?

[teamsaint]

And predominantly songs and dances i.e. participative genres? And story-telling of the 'A maid there was in Portsmouth Town' or 'Now Johnny was a Cobbler' or 'Twas the Closing of the Steel works' ...' A more limited range of instruments? A few random suggestions ...

I was talking mostly about song, rather than dance tunes. But participative genres is a good description.
I suppose it is a limited range of instruments, although modern folk uses a quite wide range , often using whatever , possibly spontaneous, combination happens to be available . One might look to Steve Knightly’s current band for an example of opportunistic combinations of resources, and indeed much else of value.

https://www.facebook.com/DreamInColoursMusic/#

The kinds of subjects that you mention put one in mind of much Lieder subject matter, especially the darker material.

And your steelworks comment correlates closely to plenty of lateC20/ early C21 music, EG Martyn Joseph

[teamsaint]

Well - usually modal , often pentatonic , often in narrative form , full of oral formulaic expressions and repetitions. All things that make it easier to sing and remember.
Also as I can confess an absolute television ratings killer. But that’s TV’s problem not folk’s.

Completely Co-incidentally there’s a rather good COTW on Ruth Crawford Seeger on this week . The “braided hair “ revelations are quite extraordinary. But I’d heard that Ewan McColl was a very tricky customer. What is it about male folk singers ?

It may be a narrow subset you have experienced . I ‘m sure most of them are fine chaps. Maybe “ big fish in small ponds “ syndrome ?!
I have read that Kirsty McColl had musical issues with her father.
The COTW sounds interesting, thanks.

[Master Jacques]

Problem is I don’t think Shelley is much of a poet. And Ode To The West Wind (the exam question ) is a terrible poem.

Many of the choices in this list (not all) go for "safety first" and not frightening the horses.

I am with you on Shelley, to whom I never personally took; but we have to acknowledge the impact he clearly had on many revolutionary-minded young people down the decades.

But back to my beloved Matthew Arnold: how this examination board managed to exclude Dover Beach, The Scholar Gypsy and Thyrsis from any truly credible poetry listing, while including so much stale mediocrity, I am not quite sure. Perhaps Arnold is too hard-edged and pessimistic for sensitive young Bambis, or some such rationale. No Arthur Hugh Clough either, possibly for the same reason.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Many of the choices in this list (not all) go for "safety first" and not frightening the horses.

I am with you on Shelley, to whom I never personally took; but we have to acknowledge the impact he clearly had on many revolutionary-minded young people down the decades.

But back to my beloved Matthew Arnold: how this examination board managed to exclude Dover Beach, The Scholar Gypsy and Thyrsis from any truly credible poetry listing, while including so much stale mediocrity, I am not quite sure. Perhaps Arnold is too hard-edged and pessimistic for sensitive young Bambis, or some such rationale. No Arthur Hugh Clough either, possibly for the same reason.

Yes well you’ve just mentioned 3 of my favourite 19th century poems. Clearly your “poetic soul” is

“Cast in the same poetic mould with mine.”

Now that’s an elegy that leaves most in the Stygian shade.

I think Arnold appeals greatly to the adolescent mentality. It’s a tiny bit borderline feeling sorry for yourself isn’t it ? I think a lot are put off Arnold by the tedathon that is Sohrab and Rustum - encountered at my grammar school at about age 13.

[Ein Heldenleben]

It may be a narrow subset you have experienced . I ‘m sure most of them are fine chaps. Maybe “ big fish in small ponds “ syndrome ?!
I have read that Kirsty McColl had musical issues with her father.
The COTW sounds interesting, thanks.

It’s absolutely fascinating