The Eternal Breakfast Debate in a New Place

[french frank]

As we seem regularly to move on from the Eternal Breakfast. I thought I would copy here extracts (my bold) from what was probably the BBC Trust's last Service Review of Radio 3, in 2011. I think there are grounds for an official complaint at the way the content of the station has been wilfully distorted by latecomers to BBC management (sorry for the length):

p 1 "Radio 3 is intended to offer a mixture of music and cultural programming. Its core proposition is classical music and its speech-based programming should inform and educate the audience about music and culture. Radio 3 should also feature jazz, world music, drama, the arts and ideas, and religious programming [...]

pp 6-7 "Radio 3 is the BBC’s flagship service for making classical, jazz and world music available to licence fee payers. We note, however, that it is not the sole responsibility of Radio 3 to deliver the great works of classical music and other musical genres to all audiences. The BBC has an overall responsibility for this and there are many services with a role to play in achieving this ambition
This is particularly the case because the nature of Radio 3 means that it struggles to reach certain audience groups, such as younger people, those from less well-off households, those living further away from London, and black and minority ethnic audiences. While we would welcome an increase in listening amongst these groups, other BBC services appeal much more strongly to them than Radio 3. Other services are more effective in reaching these audiences and therefore can complement Radio 3’s delivery of this content. We believe that a coordinated approach can make more impact and note the success that the BBC has had with its poetry and opera seasons, even though these did not result in increases in listening to Radio 3 itself. We welcome the creation of the BBC classical music board which is chaired by the Controller of Radio 3 and helps coordinate this content across the BBC.

We have asked BBC management to consider how the BBC can best deliver classical, jazz and world music to as many licence fee payers as possible, and how Radio 3 should contribute to this overall ambition. In particular, BBC management should consider how this content can be made available and appealing to those audiences that Radio 3 significantly struggles to reach. "

Sam Jackson seems to be doing the exact opposite in dumping Radio 2 material on Radio 3.

[hmvman]

... We welcome the creation of the BBC classical music board which is chaired by the Controller of Radio 3 and helps coordinate this content across the BBC. [/FONT][/FONT]


Sam Jackson seems to be doing the exact opposite in dumping Radio 2 material on Radio 3.[/FONT][/FONT]

Fascinating stuff, ff. Does the BBC classical music board still exist? If so is SJ chairing it?

Isn't it rather that SJ isn't resisting the dumping of R2 material onto R3?

[kernelbogey]

FF: ...an official complaint...

How does it become 'official'?

[smittims]

Clearly there has been a complete change of policy since 2011, similar to that (and over a similar time-span) between the creation of the British Transport Commission and the Beeching cuts, which reversed everythijg the BTC was supposed to stand for.

I know I'm a but slow at times, but I didn't see how 'Radio 3 struggles to reach certain audience groups' (which are then named). Radio 3 was as accessible then as now, to anyone with a radio. Did these people not have radios? I don't remember Radio 3 'struggling'.

[oddoneout]

Clearly there has been a complete change of policy since 2011, similar to that (and over a similar time-span) between the creation of the British Transport Commission and the Beeching cuts, which reversed everythijg the BTC was supposed to stand for.

I know I'm a but slow at times, but I didn't see how 'Radio 3 struggles to reach certain audience groups' (which are then named). Radio 3 was as accessible then as now, to anyone with a radio. Did these people not have radios? I don't remember Radio 3 'struggling'.

I can't help thinking that the removal of music from 'education' combined with the multiplicity of choice available in terms of ways to hear hasn't helped improve the situation. I rather think it may well have made things worse. If pupils don't hear music in schools let alone have the chance to participate in music making then they miss an opportunity to find out about alternatives to what they hear everyday. By the same token, the enormous range of music available digitally now doesn't lead in my view to an exposure to different types of music, in fact I suspect it is the opposite. Influencers, algorithms, social media all seem to limit options that are fed to the listener and, I suspect, have the effect of gradually blocking out any curiosity about alternatives.
I realise that there were barriers to accessing 'classical' music in the 'good old days' - pupils in secondary modern schools were at a disadvantage compared with those at grammar school unless there was an enthusiastic teacher wanting to open ears and minds. However the radio did provide a valuable window and if it was the only source of entertainment then perhaps the chances of encountering classical music were greater - fiddling with the tuning knob to find a station and perhaps passing through a bit of opera(which seems to have been a gateway to many people) or one of the big symphonies. Household income and distance from London - were they an issue in terms of hearing such music then? If they are an issue now is that really a problem solely for R3 to solve? Surely now that even very young children have access to advanced handheld technology aka phones, there are fewer barriers - but you can't find what you don't know is there.

[Ein Heldenleben]

As we seem regularly to move on from the Eternal Breakfast. I thought I would copy here extracts (my bold) from what was probably the BBC Trust's last Service Review of Radio 3, in 2011. I think there are grounds for an official complaint at the way the content of the station has been wilfully distorted by latecomers to BBC management (sorry for the length):

p 1 "Radio 3 is intended to offer a mixture of music and cultural programming. Its core proposition is classical music and its speech-based programming should inform and educate the audience about music and culture. Radio 3 should also feature jazz, world music, drama, the arts and ideas, and religious programming [...]

pp 6-7 "Radio 3 is the BBC’s flagship service for making classical, jazz and world music available to licence fee payers. We note, however, that it is not the sole responsibility of Radio 3 to deliver the great works of classical music and other musical genres to all audiences. The BBC has an overall responsibility for this and there are many services with a role to play in achieving this ambition
This is particularly the case because the nature of Radio 3 means that it struggles to reach certain audience groups, such as younger people, those from less well-off households, those living further away from London, and black and minority ethnic audiences. While we would welcome an increase in listening amongst these groups, other BBC services appeal much more strongly to them than Radio 3. Other services are more effective in reaching these audiences and therefore can complement Radio 3’s delivery of this content. We believe that a coordinated approach can make more impact and note the success that the BBC has had with its poetry and opera seasons, even though these did not result in increases in listening to Radio 3 itself. We welcome the creation of the BBC classical music board which is chaired by the Controller of Radio 3 and helps coordinate this content across the BBC.

We have asked BBC management to consider how the BBC can best deliver classical, jazz and world music to as many licence fee payers as possible, and how Radio 3 should contribute to this overall ambition. In particular, BBC management should consider how this content can be made available and appealing to those audiences that Radio 3 significantly struggles to reach. "

Sam Jackson seems to be doing the exact opposite in dumping Radio 2 material on Radio 3.

I think you’d be wasting your time complaining to the BBC . The Trust was abolished in 2017 so they are not there to adjudicate. The life cycle of any BBC “policy” is probably only about 5 years . In TV about 5 months. interesting about the commitment to World Music. There’s very little of that on the new Radio 3 . It obviously gets no audience and is being eased off the channel. Aside from CE there is no religious programming .
The amount of classical music on R3 probably hasn’t gone down in 20 years.It’s just that it’s segmented into chunks . That’s not really a criterion of complaint they will entertain. And this is the problem - it all comes down to things like Is Gershwin a classical composer? Or just this week : is playing the slow movement only of Beethoven Op 135 “serious? ”
You are dealing with people who either don’t have the intellect or knowledge to grasp these issues or who do but just don’t care. The most cynical people are often the most intelligent.

You’d be better off complaining to OFCOM about a breach in licence commitment. The number of serious music and arts programmes on BBC TV has declined by I estimate 30 per cent in the last ten years or so, I’m not sure OFCOM a have signed that off. Unfortunately OFCOM are the Broadcasting equivalent of a chocolate teapot so it’s so many wasted words.

[french frank]

EH

I agree with your basic analysis of BBC management but not about whether it is a 'waste of time' to complain - or rather it would be only if you fully expect your complaint to result in positive action. But as trhe saying goes, it's not who you write to but who you copy to. I'm well aware that the approachable BBC Trust was abolished and replaced by an unfathomable "BBC Board" of which Tim Davie is a member, and an Executive Committee of which Tim Davie is the chairman.

The problem (for me) is that it's not in my nature to do nothing when I believe 'something should be done'. I'm perfectly resigned to the fact that others prefer to grumble endlessly, sigh and then turn to Mahler 2 or read a book about World War 1. Everyone has Better Things To Do

[Ein Heldenleben]

EH

I agree with your basic analysis of BBC management but not about whether it is a 'waste of time' to complain - or rather it would be only if you fully expect your complaint to result in positive action. But as trhe saying goes, it's not who you write to but who you copy to. I'm well aware that the approachable BBC Trust was abolished and replaced by an unfathomable "BBC Board" of which Tim Davie is a member, and an Executive Committee of which Tim Davie is the chairman.

The problem (for me) is that it's not in my nature to do nothing when I believe 'something should be done'. I'm perfectly resigned to the fact that others prefer to grumble endlessly, sigh and then turn to Mahler 2 or read a book about World War 1. Everyone has Better Things To Do

The BBC board has got its hands full with so many largely avoidable disasters like the Gaza doc , Huw Edwards , Tim Westwood not to mention the entire funding future of the corp I suspect programming policy on R3 might at least come as light relief. The “Arts rep “ Nick Serota is such a titanic disappointment. What doesn’t he do anything ? Satire died when they made Robbie Gibb the England rep. No surprise that those two areas Arts and English TV and Radio programming have been laid waste.

[Serial_Apologist]

I can't help thinking that the removal of music from 'education' combined with the multiplicity of choice available in terms of ways to hear hasn't helped improve the situation. I rather think it may well have made things worse. If pupils don't hear music in schools let alone have the chance to participate in music making then they miss an opportunity to find out about alternatives to what they hear everyday. By the same token, the enormous range of music available digitally now doesn't lead in my view to an exposure to different types of music, in fact I suspect it is the opposite. Influencers, algorithms, social media all seem to limit options that are fed to the listener and, I suspect, have the effect of gradually blocking out any curiosity about alternatives.
I realise that there were barriers to accessing 'classical' music in the 'good old days' - pupils in secondary modern schools were at a disadvantage compared with those at grammar school unless there was an enthusiastic teacher wanting to open ears and minds. However the radio did provide a valuable window and if it was the only source of entertainment then perhaps the chances of encountering classical music were greater - fiddling with the tuning knob to find a station and perhaps passing through a bit of opera(which seems to have been a gateway to many people) or one of the big symphonies. Household income and distance from London - were they an issue in terms of hearing such music then? If they are an issue now is that really a problem solely for R3 to solve? Surely now that even very young children have access to advanced handheld technology aka phones, there are fewer barriers - but you can't find what you don't know is there.

They are an issue if Radio 3 makes the problem even worse by reneging on its ostensible remit.

But you are so right in respect of what you say in the remainder of your post. Undiscriminated access to "all there is", even assuming the inquisitive have not already been nobbled by algorhythmic "choice", is tantamount to showing a child all the cooked meal alternatives that exist in the world, telling them this is your previously unprecedented range for selecting what you need to know, and then offering them Radio 3.

[Master Jacques]

They are an issue if Radio 3 makes the problem even worse by reneging on its ostensible remit.

But you are so right in respect of what you say in the remainder of your post. Undiscriminated access to "all there is", even assuming the inquisitive have not already been nobbled by algorhythmic "choice", is tantamount to showing a child all the cooked meal alternatives that exist in the world, telling them this is your previously unprecedented range for selecting what you need to know, and then offering them Radio 3.

It's decades since Radio 3 dropped all programming directly aimed at children and adolescents, unless we count Jess Gillam. On the other hand, nearly all programming these days is aimed at the ailing and infantile, which is rather a different case.

If I want to give my European friends an example of how our country has lost its way, I offer them a quick run down of Radio 3 over the last two decades. Loss of funding, cultural bullying from ignorant outsiders placed inside the tent, and diminishing support for anything remotely resembling "high art" in a populist-orientated establishment, have between them resulted in total loss of confidence in what the channel is supposed to be doing.

I honestly don't think any of the station's senior management have the remotest idea of what they can do. They hope that keeping the Proms going, like some sort of rotting zombie on speed, will give people the idea that all is rosy in the garden. It does no such thing. Otherwise, it's playlists, playlists all the way. And axe anything they can get away with. The fewer complete works broadcast, the better.

Radio 3 has gradually become a national embarrassment, compared to the competition in almost any other European country - no matter how fiscally challenged - which we'd care to name.

[french frank]

They hope that keeping the Proms going, like some sort of rotting zombie on speed, will give people the idea that all is rosy in the garden.

Florence and the Machine? Sam Smith? Now you're talking, MJ. Proms it is. Safe in their hands.

[Ein Heldenleben]

It's decades since Radio 3 dropped all programming directly aimed at children and adolescents, unless we count Jess Gillam. On the other hand, nearly all programming these days is aimed at the ailing and infantile, which is rather a different case.

If I want to give my European friends an example of how our country has lost its way, I offer them a quick run down of Radio 3 over the last two decades. Loss of funding, cultural bullying from ignorant outsiders placed inside the tent, and diminishing support for anything remotely resembling "high art" in a populist-orientated establishment, have between them resulted in total loss of confidence in what the channel is supposed to be doing.

I honestly don't think any of the station's senior management have the remotest idea of what they can do. They hope that keeping the Proms going, like some sort of rotting zombie on speed, will give people the idea that all is rosy in the garden. It does no such thing. Otherwise, it's playlists, playlists all the way. And axe anything they can get away with. The fewer complete works broadcast, the better.

Radio 3 has gradually become a national embarrassment, compared to the competition in almost any other European country - no matter how fiscally challenged - which we'd care to name.

What you’ve said could just as easily be applied to its TV Arts , Science and History output . The dumbing down is palpable and extraordinary. The same is true of course of
C4 and ITV -though in the latter case from a lower base level in quantity . Does this reflect our contemporary culture ? I suspect the same is true in education. The TV producers and Conmissioners of today have little cultural hinterland The paradox is that it’s never been easier to access high culture . You can buy the complete Henry James on Kindle for less than a Penguin classic of Portrait Of A Lady . I’ve retreated like many into a world of reading literature , going to the Opera , playing the piano with Radio 3 background music for the daily bid to pay for it all.
The idea of some things are being better than others has died and with that the entire point of editorially moderated media. We are all out own series editors . Luckily having done it for twenty years I’m reasonably skilled at it .