The Eternal Breakfast Debate in a New Place

[Master Jacques]

Yes indeed # Music begins and ends with the human voice . Some recent highlights on R3 - Tomasso singing Cavaradossi, Goerne singing An Die Mond, Callas. Yes some singers develop an “excessive” vibrato with age - but I don’t or didn’t see many turning down tickets for a Callas opera performance . They are often singers who’ve given everything for art - one that often involves very slender women making themselves heard over a 100 piece orchestra like at Jenufa last night . They deserve our thanks not scorn.

Bravo! I raise a Gromit-like eyebrow when people are so deafened by a bit of vibrato, that they can't hear the supreme artistry which often lies underneath.

In addition to which, we should take issue with any implication that somehow vibrato-heavy singing is a recent phenomenon, for men or women no longer in their early twenties, having to bawl over the ultra-loud modern orchestra. You only have to listen to recordings from the early years of the 20th century to disprove that theory; and singers in eighteenth-century London weren't immune from loosening vocal chords either. It's human, happens to all of us, and deserves better than easy mockery.

[vinteuil]

Music begins and ends with the human voice .

... it may 'begin' with the human voice.

A very particular perspective to say that it 'ends' there.

Not everyone is keen on the human voice - for some of us the joy of instrumental music is precisely bicoz there ain't no singing.

And please don't say that all instrumentalists are striving to replicate the sound of the human voice.

If some of us find the sound of a wide vibrato deeply unpleasant we are allowed to say so

[Ein Heldenleben]

... it may 'begin' with the human voice.

A very particular perspective to say that it 'ends' there.

Not everyone is keen on the human voice - for some of us the joy of instrumental music is precisely bicoz there ain't no singing.

And please don't say that all instrumentalists are striving to replicate the sound of the human voice.

If some of us find the sound of a wide vibrato deeply unpleasant we are allowed to say so

I don’t think there’s an instrumental player on earth who wouldn’t benefit from listening to and learning from the great singers. Even better try singing what you are about to play - as Chopin taught . I don’t think an instrumentalist who despises the human voice is likely to be worth listening to and I’m struggling to think of a single decent or great composer who didn’t write vocal music . It’s the Alpha and Omega really.
Say whatever you wish or better still sing it !

[french frank]

Edit: Not entirely clear that the is for vinteuil

I think the human voice and the 'man made' instruments have inspired very different kinds of music. You don't like 'heavy vibrato'? Switch it off! You don't like the sound of gut strings or 'out of tune' harpsichords? Avoid 'em at all costs! Your prerogative. We would all accept, though, wouldn't we, that we're only expressing our personal tastes and tolerances? Other valid opinions available.

... it may 'begin' with the human voice.

A very particular perspective to say that it 'ends' there.

Not everyone is keen on the human voice - for some of us the joy of instrumental music is precisely bicoz there ain't no singing.

And please don't say that all instrumentalists are striving to replicate the sound of the human voice.

If some of us find the sound of a wide vibrato deeply unpleasant we are allowed to say so

[smittims]

The thing about the voice, I always think,is that it's so personal, so much more a part of the person than,say,the tone of a clarinettist. So I'm always wary of criticising the particular sound of a singer. However fine their technique or musicianship, there will always be people who just don't like their voice. Peter Pears and Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau have many detractors in this way. Conversely, one often makes allowances for a favourite voice even when the technique isn't quite equal tothatof the best. I'm thinking of Kenneth McKellar in Messiah, whom I much enjoyed hearing yesterday,.

[Serial_Apologist]

French Frank is right - different horses for different courses: at a certain stage in musical history instrumental advances began to predicate instrumental over vocal forms, and in the process the character of melody changed from what it had been while solely vocally inspired. Similarly instrumentalists sought to imitate or capture vocal expressive characteristics such as vibrato in their technique - perhaps more in the 19th century than before or since. Nowhere has "vocalisation" been more prominently evidenced than in jazz in its primarily instrumental form - think of Ben Webster's growly vibrato and phrase-concluding "fuff-fuffs"! - nor attempted to be denied or minimised, if one listens to the great Bebop and Cool players (although they did tend to "revert" when playing ballads). Ironically scat singing in jazz would mark the impact of instrumental melodic dexterity on vocal improvising.

Where my problem lies with classical vocal vibrato is where it becomes so wide as to make one wonder where the actual written pitch has gone!

[Ein Heldenleben]

Edit: Not entirely clear that the is for vinteuil

I think the human voice and the 'man made' instruments have inspired very different kinds of music. You don't like 'heavy vibrato'? Switch it off! You don't like the sound of gut strings or 'out of tune' harpsichords? Avoid 'em at all costs! Your prerogative. We would all accept, though, wouldn't we, that we're only expressing our personal tastes and tolerances? Other valid opinions available.

Not so sure about that. You might think Mozart Symphonies one of the purest forms of “instrumental music. “ Yet it’s said that Josef Krips could sing or hum all of them from memory. Yes that might be tricky with some Boulez but I bet Jane Manning or Cathy Berberian could have a good stab at it. Very little music if any lacks some sort of melody or arrangement of differing top notes .
I’m not expressing an opinion as to whether vocal music is “better “ than instrumental music . I actually think it’s a false dichotomy . They are so intertwined. Ben Webster mentioned below is a classic example of a vocal instrumentalist - to which we could add Heifitz, Kreisler and and any other instrumentalist worth listening to with the possible exception of untuned percussion players. I do a good impression of the Eastenders sig tune drum intro though …

[kernelbogey]

...Where my problem lies with classical vocal vibrato is where it becomes so wide as to make one wonder where the actual written pitch has gone!

And of course it's much more evident in a 'bleeding chunk' on the radio: in the Opera House there is so much else going on - mise-en-scêne, action and so forth - that wide vibrato is just one part of the bigger picture.

With Lieder, I imagine our taste has changed, perhaps under the influence of HIPP orchestral sound.

[LMcD]

Do you think the producer of the Breakfast programme would take any notice if a number of us just happened to contact the programme suggesting the inclusion of a number (say half a dozen) of shorter pieces by unjustly neglected British composers? To avoid suspicion, these lists could be sent in over, say, a couple of months, with any on-air mention of the first list or work apparently encouraging more suggestions.

[antongould]

Do you think the producer of the Breakfast programme would take any notice if a number of us just happened to contact the programme suggesting the inclusion of a number (say half a dozen) of shorter pieces by unjustly neglected British composers? To avoid suspicion, these lists could be sent in over, say, a couple of months, with any on-air mention of the first list or work apparently encouraging more suggestions.

we tried something very similar more years ago then I care to remember and didn’t even get an acknowledgment

[french frank]

we tried something very similar more years ago then I care to remember and didn’t even get an acknowledgment

I'm trying to remember what the aim was. I think you coordinated a list suggesting the inclusion of seldom played, somewhat longer works (over 10 mins) as a change from single movements and very short 'complete' works. Was that it?

[LMcD]

we tried something very similar more years ago then I care to remember and didn’t even get an acknowledgment

I've suggested the inclusion of a suite for recorder and strings by Alan Rawsthorne - if that request is met, who's to say it won't trigger a few more? The airing of more substantial works will be preferred by some, but surely some complete short works by the likes of Alwyn, Bliss, Boughton and others would be better than their present virtually total neglect?

[antongould]

I'm trying to remember what the aim was. I think you coordinated a list suggesting the inclusion of seldom played, somewhat longer works (over 10 mins) as a change from single movements and very short 'complete' works. Was that it?

it was indeed …. we gathered a lot of very good suggestions, not from me obviously - but then it was Rob Cowan ….. not Elizabeth Alker …. a kindly soul IMVVHO

[Serial_Apologist]

it was indeed …. we gathered a lot of very good suggestions, not from me obviously - but then it was Rob Cowan ….. not Elizabeth Alker …. a kindly soul IMVVHO

Cowan Gate could well have been a descriptor for the kind of music that was once played first thing in the morning, pre-Breakfast era!

[cloughie]

Cowan Gate cud well have been a descriptor for the kind of music that was once played first thing in the morning, pre-Breakfast era!

I won’t try to milk it further.