The Eternal Breakfast Debate in a New Place

[AuntDaisy]

[Pedant] those data [/Pedant]

Sorry

I'd argue that "that data" refers to a grouping / consolidation / crunching of data entries, whereas "those data" would refer to the individual data entries (so-and-so listens to Elizabeth Alker...). I'd probably lose though.

[kernelbogey]

No one seems to want to tackle the question of how far the BBC should take its cue from audiences in deciding what Radio 3 should broadcast. 'We need our content to attract younger listeners, we need the right tone to attract people who are intimidated by the unfamiliarity of classical music, we have to cater for people with busy lives and shorter attention spans, we must attract a more diverse audience.' Which is the cart and which is the horse?

Not really 'tackling it' but....
Society has become drenched with inattention. Of course 'screens' as parents now have to say to their kids, are the prime cause (thanks a bunch Zuck, Elon and your mates) but society as a whole seems to ape the whole concept of a brief, ephemeral event being intensely interesting right now. And then on to the next such. The Californian tech bros set that up well (just like the tobacco giants and the oil giants did for their products).

The 3-4 minute pop record set a standard for musical length; and has been commercially successful ever since.So I'd say those are some of the dominating influences.

[AuntDaisy]

No one seems to want to tackle the question of how far the BBC should take its cue from audiences in deciding what Radio 3 should broadcast. 'We need our content to attract younger listeners, we need the right tone to attract people who are intimidated by the unfamiliarity of classical music, we have to cater for people with busy lives and shorter attention spans, we must attract a more diverse audience.' Which is the cart and which is the horse?

Or carrot & stick?

Didn't R3 used to do something called "Pied Piper" Sadly, "The Listening Service" is no substitute.

I think the CBeebies, Dr Who & similar Proms might be an attempt, as is "Sound of Gaming" and similar of that ilk.

[smittims]

I well remember hearing Elgar's Violin Concerto (complete, of course) at 8.04 am. one Saturday morning on Radio 3. It was the first music broadcast that day. That would be unthinkable today.

[LMcD]

Anyone fancy Beethoven's Triple Concerto in its entirety for Breakfast?

Paul Gambaccini - or his producer - was kind enough to wait until 0934 back in 1996.

[AuntDaisy]

Paul Gambaccini - or his producer - was kind enough to wait until 0934 back in 1996.

Part of his Morning Collation? I might be getting peckish by then.

[oddoneout]

Not really 'tackling it' but....
Society has become drenched with inattention. Of course 'screens' as parents now have to say to their kids, are the prime cause (thanks a bunch Zuck, Elon and your mates) but society as a whole seems to ape the whole concept of a brief, ephemeral event being intensely interesting right now. And then on to the next such. The Californian tech bros set that up well (just like the tobacco giants and the oil giants did for their products).

The 3-4 minute pop record set a standard for musical length; and has been commercially successful ever since.So I'd say those are some of the dominating influences.

Strictly speaking it's not the object that's the problem - it is after all inanimate - but the use to which it is put, either by the business or the individual.
If part of BBC's purpose is to inform and educate then there is an argument that R3 should not be pandering to the existing short attention span problem to the exclusion of all else, but providing an alternative, a way of moving on. I have long argued that the post Breakfast slot is an ideal one to do so - complete short works moving to longer ones towards midday. If it is felt necessary to continue with the chat'n'bits offering then first thing is a good time, especially if it is done intelligently and can deliver information and something less lazy than the later morning slot, as Petroc still mostly manages - despite the constraints imposed. I would point out(in response to one of FF's earlier comments) that the audience for that and for "proper R3" are not mutually exclusive. Having to leave off listening to a complete work due to the demands of beginning a working day isn't of itself better than only having part of it in the first place - and I well remember the times I succumbed to listening and made myself late in the good old days.

[Ein Heldenleben]

No one seems to want to tackle the question of how far the BBC should take its cue from audiences in deciding what Radio 3 should broadcast. 'We need our content to attract younger listeners, we need the right tone to attract people who are intimidated by the unfamiliarity of classical music, we have to cater for people with busy lives and shorter attention spans, we must attract a more diverse audience.' Which is the cart and which is the horse?

Is that a quote from some one from Radio 3 or a confected summary of their perceived position ? I only ask because it’s been requoted in quotes twice now.

[ff: My confected summary, but all the elements have been used by the BBC]

[french frank]

Having to leave off listening to a complete work due to the demands of beginning a working day isn't of itself better than only having part of it in the first place - and I well remember the times I succumbed to listening and made myself late in the good old days.

As another forumite succinctly put it once: 'If I have to leave to go to work before the piece finishes, it's my problem not the BBC's.' But 'people' have now been programmed to enjoy sequences of short pieces - like playing the Top Twenty or using a Juke Box (traditional or 'social' sic Wiki); hence also now mixtapes and the track shuffle facility.

When Pascal wrote: “All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone”, fast forward in time and I imagine he would allow 'man' to sit quietly listening to the whole of Beethoven's A minor string quartet. Humanity's problems stem from 'man' needing to get up, switch on Essential Classics, wander in and out doing various jobs ... So does the BBC go with the flow (yes, it does at present) or seek to educate? Obviously, the cartful of people is more important than the poor workhorse who is no more than an animal.

BBC managers were often unashamed intellectuals. Now they're more likely to come from the advertising and marketing spheres

[Ein Heldenleben]

Is that a quote from some one from Radio 3 or a confected summary of their perceived position ? I only ask because it’s been requoted in quotes twice now.

[ff: My confected summary, but all the elements have been used by the BBC]

Shouldn’t be in quotes really should it FF ? It has never been published in that form.

[french frank]

Shouldn’t be in quotes really should it FF ? It has never been published in that form.

I would take double quotes as normally being direct speech. In this case the single quotes were to illustrate the fact that the explanations were given by the BBC (not by me), though not necessarily the exact words. I'm going from memory but could probably dig out sources if the factual basis is disputed.

I'm not always 100% consistent in this, but I hope this clarifies the position :-)

[oddoneout]

As another forumite succinctly put it once: 'If I have to leave to go to work before the piece finishes, it's my problem not the BBC's.' But 'people' have now been programmed to enjoy sequences of short pieces - like playing the Top Twenty or using a Juke Box (traditional or 'social' sic Wiki); hence also now mixtapes and the track shuffle facility.

When Pascal wrote: “All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone”, fast forward in time and I imagine he would allow 'man' to sit quietly listening to the whole of Beethoven's A minor string quartet. Humanity's problems stem from 'man' needing to get up, switch on Essential Classics, wander in and out doing various jobs ... So does the BBC go with the flow (yes, it does at present) or seek to educate? Obviously, the cartful of people is more important than the poor workhorse who is no more than an animal.

BBC managers were often unashamed intellectuals. Now they're more likely to come from the advertising and marketing spheres

The "it's not my problem" approach is often taken by business, but for a public service provider such as the BBC, ignoring the realities of modern life is harder to justify and arguably counter-productive. The difficulty is determining where the lines can or should be drawn.
The current R3 approach of assuming that all its audience(whatever that consists of, real or wished for) wants and needs the chat'n'bits approach throughout the day has got the lines in the wrong place as far as I'm concerned.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I would take double quotes as normally being direct speech. In this case the single quotes were to illustrate the fact that the explanations were given by the BBC (not by me), though not necessarily the exact words. I'm going from memory but could probably dig out sources if the factual basis is disputed.

I'm not always 100% consistent in this, but I hope this clarifies the position :-)

Very few people understand that distinction I’m afraid - the lack of ellipses doesn’t help . We perhaps need to guard against “quotes “ entering Radio 3 mythology surely ? Seems to me that this strand over -relies on two quotes from a much longer reply and now a “confected” or assembled quote from memory . Though I don’t dispute R3 might have said some thing along these lines in the past - it rings true as it were - it’s not necessarily what the new regime thinks or the emphasis they would put on things . Clearly for a start they are perhaps more open to debate than predecessors which is a good thing.
Incidentally an MP once told me a local journalist has made up several of his quotes for an article . When the MP complained the journo said “ I just thought that’s what you would say .” The MP agreed he would have said more or less precisely that.

[french frank]

EH: I think it's good to have someone who can be critical of the BBC while at the same time trying to defend it from unfair criticism - or at least challenge the criticism. When you say that very people would understand the difference [between single and double quotes], you point to the problem of social media - who is consuming it? I assumed that people here, registered members, understand the context and the issues and that very few of them would either dispute the facts of what I was saying or even assume that I had been directly quoting from BBC publications. Perhaps many people here had the same doubt as you. I don't know.

But to be clearer, I believe that BBC strategy has focused on:

Getting younger people to listen to Radio 3
Getting a broader, more diverse audience for Radio 3
Striving to avoid 'intimidating' (a BBC Trust verb) people who are less informed about classical music
Deliberately catering for perceived shorter attention spans (RW stated that in a Feedbak interview).

And I believe that this strategy is the ultimate source of much of the dissatisfation from some parts of the R3 audience: the conclusion is that R3 can't find more airtime for young, diverse, classically uninformed audiences without providing less time to listeners like us. It's about how Radio 3 serves God and Mammon, if you like. I don't much care whether I'm part of God or Mammon in that analogy, but the problem is that Radio 3 is trying to serve two masters.

[kernelbogey]