The Eternal Breakfast Debate in a New Place

[Ein Heldenleben]

French Frank - you make a very powerful point here. What I find very odd about R3 is its reluctance to go deep into matters as a matter of course. It can do this very well, but infrequently, as if afraid of alienating people. There are fascinating programmes on R4 and R5Live that go into enormous detail on certain topics, leaving one feeling 'I know enough about that now' or equally 'This has been fascinating, I will explore further!' It borders on the anti-intellectual to be honest. Your suggestion for an examination into the latest trends in popular music is excellent; if you are a R3 listener it is reasonable to assume that your mind and ears are at least open to the idea of someone explaining what is happening now, rather than the tired assumption that simply because lots of young/er people listen to it, it surely can have no merit at all. And there are numerous other potential lines of enquiry. Also agree emphatically about the ludicrous idea of 'moving with the times' being de facto problematic. If people had refused to move wih the times from the 60s onwards we would scarcely have any Mahler and Stravinsky would still be 'difficult'.

It’s pretty well universal across the broadcast media that the intellectual demands made on both listeners and viewers have declined. Whether this reflects a general decline in intelligence and education levels is a very large question. Series like Jacob Bronowski’s Ascent Of Man just wouldn’t get made now.
Paradoxically there’s never been more intellectually demanding fare publicly available- things like Wiki for example . Some of the science entries make very little concession to those without science degrees .There are also some pretty demanding podcasts out there. Several cultural critics have also noticed that following the plot lines of modern drama series like Billions or Line Of Duty requires a level of attention usually given to Shakespeare.
Theres no question R3’s speech content has dumbed down considerably over the years. You won’t hear the likes of Betrand Russell or AJ Ayer or even Hans Keller (who wasn’t quite in the same league ) these days. This weeks The Essay is a series of autobiographical tales from Adrian Edmondson . In what sense is it an essay?
The Sunday Feature can be good but it has too many progs essentially on identity politics for me.
Even back in the sixties there were plenty of critics of the Third Programmes speech programmes - Leavis in particular was scathing about its literary coverage (very Bloomsbury dominated ) but then he was pretty scathing about quite a lot of things.

[french frank]

What I find very odd about R3 is its reluctance to go deep into matters as a matter of course. It can do this very well, but infrequently, as if afraid of alienating people.

In that, of course, they're right. It would 'alienate' some people. Just as there are 'some people' who think today's R3 is an improvement on the high-falutin' Third, which put them off when they were 12. The BBC could put whatever they like on 90-93FM, and on digital radio, and it would attract an audience - even if it was all-day bingo. Renewing the 'identity' of the old Third wouldn't mean becoming the Rory Bremner Dead Ringers good-for-a-laugh-ho-ho-ho Third Programme. But there would be an audience for a station with that cultural identity.

There are some services which escape the BBC bean-counters' eyes and which are much more expensive than R3, either on the cost per listener hour metric (minority language radio services - social value) or the real cost (the popular music stations - 'competitive value'). All it needs is for the BBC to recognise the cultural value of a "Third Programme" type approach.

[kernelbogey]

It’s pretty well universal across the broadcast media that the intellectual demands made on both listeners and viewers have declined. Whether this reflects a general decline in intelligence and education levels is a very large question. Series like Jacob Bronowski’s Ascent Of Man just wouldn’t get made now....

I suspect that a new generation of producers, programme planners and network managers has developed a groupthink of appealing always to a lowest common denominator of knowledge and education. This seems to me particularly obvious in documentary television where voice-over commentary is now dumbed-down to an excruciating degree.

[LMcD]

I suspect that a new generation of producers, programme planners and network managers has developed a groupthink of appealing always to a lowest common denominator of knowledge and education. This seems to me particularly obvious in television where voice-over commentary is now dumbed-down to an excruciating degree.

Where would we be if we didn't have think tanks and focus groups to decide things for us?

[oddoneout]

In that, of course, they're right. It would 'alienate' some people. Just as there are 'some people' who think today's R3 is an improvement on the high-falutin' Third, which put them off when they were 12. The BBC could put whatever they like on 90-93FM, and on digital radio, and it would attract an audience - even if it was all-day bingo. Renewing the 'identity' of the old Third wouldn't mean becoming the Rory Bremner Dead Ringers good-for-a-laugh-ho-ho-ho Third Programme. But there would be an audience for a station with that cultural identity.

There are some services which escape the BBC bean-counters' eyes and which are much more expensive than R3, either on the cost per listener hour metric (minority language radio services - social value) or the real cost (the popular music stations - 'competitive value'). All it needs is for the BBC to recognise the cultural value of a "Third Programme" type approach.

Well, the current version is alienating a good few people in the longstanding audience, but that presumably is interpreted in today's warped thought climate as a good thing and proof that the old version was elitist and thus needed removing? Any questions about a replacement audience are in a different department and thus neatly separated (by lack of joined-up thinking, which seems to be establishment's modus operandi these days) from the issue of loss of existing listeners.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I suspect that a new generation of producers, programme planners and network managers has developed a groupthink of appealing always to a lowest common denominator of knowledge and education. This seems to me particularly obvious in documentary television where voice-over commentary is now dumbed-down to an excruciating degree.

Not my television commentary thanks but in general you’re right!

[LMcD]

This may be a silly question, and may have already been answered elsewhere, in which case could I kindly be enlightened.?
If Petroc Trelawney can host Breakfast from a studio in Truro, why can't Martin Handley do the same from a BBC studio in Brighton (I believe he lives in East Sussex)?

[smittims]

I'm sure someone has the answer to that. Maybe he doesn't want to, or maybe there isn't a studio there. Your question did make me think of the days (do they still do this?) whe BBC TV news used to send Andrew Marr to stand oiutside Downing Street in the pouring rain at 10 o'clock at night just so he could report 'live' from a place where a meeting may have been held some hours earlier at which something might have been discussed, or Simon Calder sent to Gatwich airport to tell us something he (or anyone else) could have said from his own home.

[antongould]

This may be a silly question, and may have already been answered elsewhere, in which case could I kindly be enlightened.?
If Petroc Trelawney can host Breakfast from a studio in Truro, why can't Martin Handley do the same from a BBC studio in Brighton (I believe he lives in East Sussex)?

I posed the same question on the changes to R3 thread - and Georgia doesn’t I think stray far from the smoke …… as we used to ponder with debatable football selections ….. are they digging #WackoJacko’s garden .. ?????

[french frank]

The answer may be that he had decided he’d like a change. From what I heard, it was Rob’s decision to leave EC and move to Classic FM (I think R3 was surprised). So Martin may have decided to cultiver son jardin.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I'm sure someone has the answer to that. Maybe he doesn't want to, or maybe there isn't a studio there. Your question did make me think of the days (do they still do this?) whe BBC TV news used to send Andrew Marr to stand oiutside Downing Street in the pouring rain at 10 o'clock at night just so he could report 'live' from a place where a meeting may have been held some hours earlier at which something might have been discussed, or Simon Calder sent to Gatwich airport to tell us something he (or anyone else) could have said from his own home.

BBC Sussex are based at Brighton so presenting a show from there would be feasible . It depends on the exact facilities they have as one studio will be being used at that time for their output. There is almost certainly a small news contribution studio that could be used but they are fairly rudimentary. It’s a slight out of date question because these days you can present a radio programme from anywhere using internet protocol. You will get programme feed and talkback exactly as with a normal studio but no one bringing you coffee , smiling at you through the glass and generally making a fuss of you . Also no office gossip and no office politics - which is why I suspect a lot of presenters now come in.
As for why Chris Mason has to stand outside No 10 rather the warmth of a TV studio it’s because producers Place great weight on being close to where the story is happening - to add a general air of authority . The fact that Chris gathers most of info from the lobby or over the phone seems not to matter.

[antongould]

The answer may be that he had decided he’d like a change. From what I heard, it was Rob’s decision to leave EC and move to Classic FM (I think R3 was surprised). So Martin may have decided to cultiver son jardin.

but Skellers obviously doesn’t fancy a change and has been sent to the sub’s bench for not going to Salford why not Lord Truro and Lady Georgia …. ..??????

[kernelbogey]

....If Petroc Trelawney can host Breakfast from a studio in Truro, why can't Martin Handley do the same from a BBC studio in Brighton (I believe he lives in East Sussex)?

Martin had been presenting Sunday Breakfast from his sitting room from the beginning of the first lockdown until some time within the last year, when he resumed presenting it from Broadcasting House. He will be a great loss to R3. Some animals are more equal than others, apparently.

[kernelbogey]

...As for why Chris Mason has to stand outside No 10 rather the warmth of a TV studio it’s because producers Place great weight on being close to where the story is happening - to add a general air of authority . The fact that Chris gathers most of info from the lobby or over the phone seems not to matter.

I've always thought this a bonkers habit by the news producers. Do they think we are so stupid as to think.... Oh, wait...

[antongould]

Martin had been presenting Sunday Breakfast from his sitting room from the beginning of the first lockdown until some time within the last year, when he resumed presenting it from Broadcasting House. He will be a great loss to R3. Some animals are more equal than others, apparently.

indeed kb they seem to be …….