The Eternal Breakfast Debate in a New Place

[cloughie]

Blossom Dearie ( appropriately ) does a lovely version of this….

Hopefully not spoilt by a late frost!

I have a number on the shelves including Cassandra Wilson, Jane Monheit, Julie London, Sarah Vaughan and Elkie Brooks.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I think there is a difference between advertising a 'brand' - rather like sponsorship of Formula 1 Racing or a football team. It isn't advertising a precise product, especially one on a time-limited offer like a broadcast programme. It's keeping the company name in the public eye and creating a positive response to it. Barwise and Ehreberg have done a great deal of research on radio/television audience attitudes to 'advertising'. They point out that both television and radio are 'low-level involvement' activities, particularly between programmes. What makes BBC trails so insidious is that they occur amid the flow of the programme itself - unlike the commercial breaks on television.

Why do people get so annoyed about trails? Perhaps because it is seen as a monopoly advertiser: the BBC advertising itself. People are annoyed by repetitive trails, Radio 3 listeners seem particularly sensitive to snippets of classical music being included, especially as a bit of background music.

Whether one is personally annoyed or not is irrelevant to the issue: 'people' do get very annoyed. The same 'people' will admit that now and again they are alerted to a programme they are interested in listening to, but it doesn't change their minds about trails. And as I've said, programme information at the junctions between programmes seems a better idea. But then, once you've reduced 'programmes' to long 2-3 hour sequences of presenter-CD-trail-news-listener opinion-presenter-CD-news-trail it's difficult to make them any more annoying … (in my view, of course).

All I can say is people’s annoyance isn’t (or wasn’t ) reflected in the number of complaints if the BBC annual report is accurate. For me there is too much in break trailing on all the networks. Particularly irritating are the ad breakers on Channel 4 Walter Presents with the two ladies in the car waggling the car keys - I must have seen that a thousand times . Cunningly you can’t spool thru the ads on All4 catchup - and the ad breaks are often 3 mins 30 . I’ve even been know to try and record the relevant episode and spool through it.
The thing about the Radio three trails are they are very often only 30 secs - a time duration that is etched into me . So I know whatever the pain it will be over soon. On a weird technical note I dislike the technical standards on some Radio trails particularly when the voice over has been heavily compressed. It clashes horribly with the uncompressed Radio 3 presenter set up.. But worse things happen at sea as they say…and I have a slight obsession with natural sounding voice recording.

Freakeconomics which has a whole chapter on TV advertising draws heavily on the Ehrenberg research - trouble is there’s other research which suggests precisely the opposite. I would agree that there are a lot of vested interests very keen to promote the idea that TV advertising works. Thing is …some does , some doesn’t..

[Ein Heldenleben]

Hopefully not spoilt by a late frost!

I have a number on the shelves including Cassandra Wilson, Jane Monheit, Julie London, Sarah Vaughan and Elkie Brooks.

Some great names there. Mark Murphy has a lovely voice but in his version he back phrases too much. Keep it simple and stick on the beat on this one . Save the jazzing it up for Fly Me To The Moon et Al …..

[french frank]

All I can say is people’s annoyance isn’t (or wasn’t ) reflected in the number of complaints if the BBC annual report is accurate.

Courtesy of Google I've managed to locate an earlier post I made here, about which I'd just been desperately trying (and failing) to remember the details:

"It was a bit bizarre - when the Parliamentary Select Committee carried out its general survey about the BBC (when Radiocentre, the industry body, complained on behalf of Classic FM about R3 'aping' CFM features), the Green Paper had a particular mention about BBC trails, that 'consumers' (aka listeners and viewers) said they were on too frequently. This seemed to go against what RW had said, although several Radio critics such as Gillian Reynolds and Robert Hanks had written articles about it.

"Mysteriously, when the White Paper was published the reference had been altered: there had been criticisms about trails but the BBC, as a Public Service Broadcaster, had a duty to inform the public as widely as possible about what it was providing. In other words, the BBC had submitted its response to the Green Paper and got the criticisms squashed."

I would repeat the point about television and radio trailing. The Radio 3 trails last 30-45 seconds and punctuate the programme itself; they turn up at unexpected moments so that they can't be avoided. I read an article (American) in which it said that it takes approximately 12 seconds for audiences to take in that they don't want to hear what's being broadcast and they switch off or turn to another service.

[oddoneout]

Courtesy of Google I've managed to locate an earlier post I made here, about which I'd just been desperately trying (and failing) to remember the details:

"It was a bit bizarre - when the Parliamentary Select Committee carried out its general survey about the BBC (when Radiocentre, the industry body, complained on behalf of Classic FM about R3 'aping' CFM features), the Green Paper had a particular mention about BBC trails, that 'consumers' (aka listeners and viewers) said they were on too frequently. This seemed to go against what RW had said, although several Radio critics such as Gillian Reynolds and Robert Hanks had written articles about it.

"Mysteriously, when the White Paper was published the reference had been altered: there had been criticisms about trails but the BBC, as a Public Service Broadcaster, had a duty to inform the public as widely as possible about what it was providing. In other words, the BBC had submitted its response to the Green Paper and got the criticisms squashed."

I would repeat the point about television and radio trailing. The Radio 3 trails last 30-45 seconds and punctuate the programme itself; they turn up at unexpected moments so that they can't be avoided. I read an article (American) in which it said that it takes approximately 12 seconds for audiences to take in that they don't want to hear what's being broadcast and they switch off or turn to another service.

And for me this is the biggest bugbear, not just for the mindless repetition of something that was of no interest (at best) in the first place, but also because absolutely no thought is given to how the interruption affects the enjoyment/appreciation of the music it crashes up against. It's the equivalent, with knobs on in some respects, of the audiences/presenters who jump in with noise before the last chord has died away at concerts. It could be argued that it doesn't matter for the likes of the morning schedules, but when it started to invade Afternoon Concert(so-called) it crossed a tolerance threshold for me. What next - the thud-thud of the Sounds ad, or a shouty thing about some TV programme inserted between items in a lunchtime recital or Proms concert?

[subcontrabass]

Particularly irritating are the ad breakers on Channel 4 Walter Presents with the two ladies in the car waggling the car keys - I must have seen that a thousand times . Cunningly you can’t spool thru the ads on All4 catchup - and the ad breaks are often 3 mins 30 . I’ve even been know to try and record the relevant episode and spool through it.
.

Try installing a decent (free) ad blocker. I have not seen an advert on Walter Presents or anywhere else on All4 for several years past.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Try installing a decent (free) ad blocker. I have not seen an advert on Walter Presents or anywhere else on All4 for several years past.

Really didn’t know you could do that on All4. Thing is I’m watching on a smart tv and I’m not sure I can do that on it.

[Andrew Slater]

The Bruckner was trailed again just before R3iC this evening, again as a ‘Written Trail’, together with chunk and fade-out.

[Ein Heldenleben]

The Bruckner was trailed again just before R3iC this evening, again as a ‘Written Trail’, together with chunk and fade-out.

Thanks . I reckon I’ve learnt something .A written trail is presumably read live rather than prerecorded . That has the advantage of flexibility time- wise and thus useful for filling a few secs before going over to a live concert . I wonder if the music is faded in and out live as well? Or just live script to a pre-recorded clip.

[french frank]

The Bruckner was trailed again just before R3iC this evening, again as a ‘Written Trail’, together with chunk and fade-out.

If that was promoting Friday's concert, it may well be heard once or twice again. But a trail immediately before a concert of Stenhammar and Saint‐Saëns is not likely to be targeting an audience who might be "introduced to Bruckner" through a brief snippet of 'incidental music'.

On reflection, I don't think cross-promotion in itself is the problem. It's Radio 3's one-size-fits-all, unoriginal way of doing it. (It's what we do)

[Andrew Slater]

Thanks . I reckon I’ve learnt something .A written trail is presumably read live rather than prerecorded . That has the advantage of flexibility time- wise and thus useful for filling a few secs before going over to a live concert . I wonder if the music is faded in and out live as well? Or just live script to a pre-recorded clip.

The clip sounded very much like yesterday's in duration and content, so it's probably been prepared and made available at the touch of a button.

Perhaps the chunks could be varied, so that anyone unfortunate enough to catch them all would eventually hear the whole symphony in instalments, without the bother of listening to the actual concert: it would certainly avoid the tedium...tedium...tedium... The trail could even become an art-form in itself, with listeners eagerly tuning-in to "get the whole set".

[french frank]

The trail could even become an art-form in itself, with listeners eagerly tuning-in to "get the whole set".

Like Panini football stickers!

[kernelbogey]

The clip sounded very much like yesterday's in duration and content, so it's probably been prepared and made available at the touch of a button.

Perhaps the chunks could be varied, so that anyone unfortunate enough to catch them all would eventually hear the whole symphony in instalments, without the bother of listening to the actual concert: it would certainly avoid the tedium...tedium...tedium... The trail could even become an art-form in itself, with listeners eagerly tuning-in to "get the whole set".

[kernelbogey]

I rather like the idea of a Richard Wagner Loyalty Card.

[oddoneout]

The clip sounded very much like yesterday's in duration and content, so it's probably been prepared and made available at the touch of a button.

Perhaps the chunks could be varied, so that anyone unfortunate enough to catch them all would eventually hear the whole symphony in instalments, without the bother of listening to the actual concert: it would certainly avoid the tedium...tedium...tedium... The trail could even become an art-form in itself, with listeners eagerly tuning-in to "get the whole set".

Bite size Bruckner...
For the advanced listener there could be the jigsaw version with a prize for the person who submits the dates and times in the correct order to assemble a complete symphony - that could keep listener figures up for several months?