The Eternal Breakfast Debate in a New Place

[Quarky]

I had a hunch about what you meant by, "Well there goes my Sunday morning start....". I had no thoughts about Aunt Daisy's wearing apparel.

As far as I'm concerned, a presenter can make a programme unlistenable, but no presenter makes a certain kind of programme listenable for me. I accept that in an age when the habit of walking out in the street with earphones constantly plugged into the ears (or being indoors 'listening' to whatever happens to be on the radio) is now a 'norm', but I still prefer a music programme which has an overarching unity (a concert or recital, two late Beethoven string quartets, two contrasting French works from the 1920s &c). I can think of other themes meeting this criterion which I wouldn't necessarily listen to but would fully approve of. It's the essential unity which would make a programme worth listening to - again for me.

But so many Radio 3 programmes have ended up as sequences made up of concert fillers or encores but no musical substance. I used to think that complaining about the lack of substance was self-evidently an argument for something better on Radio 3. But the tide of changing tastes was too strong.

I'm not arguing with you FF, that's a very strong point of view. Agreed about the desirability for an overarching unity or common theme, and I can think of one or two radio stations that do this, with a single unobtrusive presenter - all day. Unfortunately this is where we go our separate ways, because I'm certain that you wouldn't enjoy more than a small fraction of the music broadcast in these other radio stations.

I'm open to the argument that Radio 3 should stick to the Classical core, and not follow fashion, or try to please everyone. In doing so, it's in danger of losing the plot. There's enough radio stations around to fill gaps in musical content for any individual listener.

However, we're stuck with the existing situation. As regards Breakfast, I've found that listening at a low volume level will allow me to hear the music, but not to hear the presenter's words. In addition, some highly selective use of the off switch ( a remote would be useful here). In this way, I can even listen to Elizabeth Alker's programme without blowing a fuse.

[french frank]

Unfortunately this is where we go our separate ways, because I'm certain that you wouldn't enjoy more than a small fraction of the music broadcast in these other radio stations.

No, I shouldn't. That's what made R3 more of a loss because there is no other station with the same remit

I'm open to the argument that Radio 3 should stick to the Classical core, and not follow fashion, or try to please everyone. In doing so, it's in danger of losing the plot. There's enough radio stations around to fill gaps in musical content for any individual listener.

I don't think that 'core classical' was what the Third Programme was about. I've always said that Radio 3 could broadcast any sort of music as long as it did it in a "Radio 3" way. So a programme about hip-hop wouldn't just play the music: it absolutely wouldn't be a programme for fans of hip-hop, but for people interested in delving into its characteristics, origins &c. And (classical) music/concerts/recitals would only be part of what the station broadcast. There also used to be a wide range of talks, documentaries, arts discussions.

I'm quite reconciled to the fact that the current audience that keeps Radio 3 on and on and on for Breakfast and Essential Classics &c is NOT going to want to listen to what the old Third/R3 used to be! The good news for them is - they don't have to!

I was interested to find this debate in the House of Lords in 1970 - Broadcasting Policy For Sound Radio:

" ... it is a fallacy to assume that someone who has listened to a light comedy item on, say, Radio 4 will continue to listen when that item ends and is succeeded by a concert of classical music. His wireless set is provided with knobs, and if he does not like the ensuing programme he will switch over." Unfortunately, Radio 3 was unique and there is nowhere else to switch over to.

[Ein Heldenleben]

No, I shouldn't. That's what made R3 more of a loss because there is no other station with the same remit



I don't think that 'core classical' was what the Third Programme was about. I've always said that Radio 3 could broadcast any sort of music as long as it did it in a "Radio 3" way. So a programme about hip-hop wouldn't just play the music: it absolutely wouldn't be a programme for fans of hip-hop, but for people interested in delving into its characteristics, origins &c. And (classical) music/concerts/recitals would only be part of what the station broadcast. There also used to be a wide range of talks, documentaries, arts discussions.

I'm quite reconciled to the fact that the current audience that keeps Radio 3 on and on and on for Breakfast and Essential Classics &c is NOT going to want to listen to what the old Third/R3 used to be! The good news for them is - they don't have to!

I was interested to find this debate in the House of Lords in 1970 - Broadcasting Policy For Sound Radio:

" ... it is a fallacy to assume that someone who has listened to a light comedy item on, say, Radio 4 will continue to listen when that item ends and is succeeded by a concert of classical music. His wireless set is provided with knobs, and if he does not like the ensuing programme he will switch over." Unfortunately, Radio 3 was unique and there is nowhere else to switch over to.

If I can develop your argument. Between 06.00 and 12.00 Radio three largely plays either short whole pieces ( overtures , songs etc ) or a movement from a longer piece esp symphonies or indeed opera extracts . At 12.00 in composer of the week the intellectual tone is raised a notch with sometimes very demanding fare played.
Between 13.00 and 17.00 we hear predominantly complete pieces symphonies, sonatas , some times whole operas . From 17.00 to 19.00 extracts and chat . Then the mix tape. Then an orthodox concert which one might have heard any time in the last 150 years or so - often in the overture , concerto, symphoniy format. What interest me is why 06.00 to 12 .00 is the snippet period. Does our attention spam shrink before luncheon ? One of the eternal mysteries.

[oddoneout]

I'm quite reconciled to the fact that the current audience that keeps Radio 3 on and on and on for Breakfast and Essential Classics &c is NOT going to want to listen to what the old Third/R3 used to be!

How do we know that, when the "old R3" isn't on offer anymore? Just because people listen to the morning schedules doesn't mean they are incapable of listening to something a bit heavier, or wouldn't if it was offered, not least because at least some of the audience (such as myself) used to do that back in the day and would still like to.
What I am finding difficult to accept now is that the bitty format is infecting the rest of the output. There seem to be more and more "shows" that are someone chuntering on and playing tracks. I have tried listening to some of them but even where I could reasonable have expected a bit of depth, insight, call it what you will, it seems that is now proscribed by those in charge. Light and superficial is the order of the day.
The destruction of Afternoon Concert is a particular sorrow to me. It used to be a real pleasure, especially as the evening concerts, for whatever reason, I was finding less appealing. Now it's just a random sequence of unrelated music, with far too much presenter input and wretched inappropriate adverts. Its version of filleting is in some ways worse than the morning schedule since it involves chopping up a sequence and layering it between other pieces - what I refer to as a lasagne. To use the term concert seems pointless. Today's version was particularly bad.

Does our attention spam shrink before luncheon ?

Well prior listening to dumbtime probably doesn't do much for mental capacity... Mind you, I'm not sure it takes all morning for normal service to be resumed even so, 6-30 to 9 should be adequate.

[cloughie]

Breakfast seems to work as the presenters make it work Petroc, Kate and Hannah. The formula evolved by Petroc is right for the time of day. Essential Classics needs to be reinvented. Tom McKinney, when filling in seems to refresh it a little but Georgia seems in the words of the great, late, Cole Porter to be ‘fighting vainly the old ennui’. As for the music - it seems ‘Anything goes’ !

[french frank]

How do we know that, when the "old R3" isn't on offer anymore? Just because people listen to the morning schedules doesn't mean they are incapable of listening to something a bit heavier, or wouldn't if it was offered, not least because at least some of the audience (such as myself) used to do that back in the day and would still like to.

People are inclined to take offence at my argument: "Are you calling me stupid?" I neither say nor think that. Whatever people enjoy listening to at any given time of day is a matter of taste, or their personal mood. The House of Lords quote (Lord Denham) was interesting, suggesting that (in 1970) someone who had listened to a light comedy on R4 wouldn't then want to listen to a classical concert. That seems a reasonable assumption, if not true of everyone always. If you were in the mood for light comedy, do you switch moods at 8pm to listen to Shostakovich? Broadcasting in the Seventies proposed that the classical concert should be on R3 and preceded by, say, some Beethoven, with a Schubert recital to end the day. Expect people to change stations if they wanted a change of diet.

You say you would 'still like' to hear the 'old R3'. Yet it's a 'particular sorrow' that Afternoon Concert has been 'destroyed'. Well, it's probably now just the ticket for other listeners.

It's not just the bitty, scrappy style which has infected most of the daytime programming, it's the style (and content) of presentation that I find irritating. Other people don't. Not only to they NOT find it irritating, they positively like it -and therefore think it's 'good'. Well, that's how things are. Those of us who don't enjoy it push off and make way for those who do. But where's the gain for the BBC and Radio 3? And what is the loss?

[seabright]

I can no longer tune in to the ghastly "Listen With Mother" Saturday morning broadcasts, so I wait until the programme is over and then click the website for details of the music I missed. As often as not, I didn't miss anything much but if there is something I'd like to hear, it's easily done by clicking the "Listen now" button. If you also wish to know what was played, here's the link. Nice to see that Michael Tilson Thomas was playing some Delius this morning, so I'll click that! ...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0016916

[Quarky]

. But where's the gain for the BBC and Radio 3? And what is the loss?

The gain for the BBC is that management can tick the boxes in whatever scheme or plan they may have for achieving whatever aims or objects that have been set.

The loss is a further chipping away of cultural values in Music (UK).

[french frank]

The gain for the BBC is that management can tick the boxes in whatever scheme or plan they may have for achieving whatever aims or objects that have been set.

The loss is a further chipping away of cultural values in Music (UK).

Which is essentially, as I see it, the only relevant reply to my 'argument'. If anyone else has a better response than yours, I'd be interested to hear it.

[kernelbogey]

An entirely new, to me, Cornish-born composer and work about Cornwall:

Judith Bailey -Havas - a period of summer, Op. 44: iii. Gwavas Lake
Orchestra: Bath Philharmonia. Conductor: Jason Thornton.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00175pq (about 0705)

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

You say you would 'still like' to hear the 'old R3'. Yet it's a 'particular sorrow' that Afternoon Concert has been 'destroyed'. Well, it's probably now just the ticket for other listeners.

The point is, for those for whom bittiness is a preference, the option was already there. Classic FM provided that service with bells and whistles. Copying what the others do has been the BBC’s feeble philosophy for several decades. The end result is a reduction in listener choice. Before CFM, the BBC already did bittiness for those who wanted it: “Your 100 Best Tunes” and “These You Have Loved”. Both were on Radio 2.

[french frank]

The point is, for those for whom bittiness is a preference, the option was already there. Classic FM provided that service with bells and whistles. Copying what the others do has been the BBC’s feeble philosophy for several decades. The end result is a reduction in listener choice. Before CFM, the BBC already did bittiness for those who wanted it: “Your 100 Best Tunes” and “These You Have Loved”. Both were on Radio 2.

The evolution has been for Radio 2 to become more 'popular' and to have nothing to do with classical music. A noisy part of the R2 audience didn't want "gerry" (geriatric) music in the days of the old BBC messageboards. The move of the older R1 listeners to Radio 2 while R1 went for the younger segment meant there was a gap in the "BBC offer" for the lighter classical/light music audience. Radio 3 had to make room for them which, given the constraints of 24 hours of airtime, meant much of the more specialised R3 content was watered down or dropped completely.

[kernelbogey]

We've just had a real bleeding chunk on Sunday Breakfast: a few minutes of the scherzo of Bruckner 9 as a kind of 'as live' trail for an upcoming concert, and actually faded out.

I must say that strikes me as a new low.

Null points, Martin & producer: or probably I should blame the suits.

[gurnemanz]

We've just had a real bleeding chunk on Sunday Breakfast: a few minutes of the scherzo of Bruckner 9 as a kind of 'as live' trail for an upcoming concert, and actually faded out.

I must say that strikes me as a new low.

Null points, Martin & producer: or probably I should blame the suits.

This outrage was my morning greeting from R3 as I woke up and switched on my bedside radio. I immediately changed input to a streamed internet station.

[cloughie]

The evolution has been for Radio 2 to become more 'popular' and to have nothing to do with classical music. A noisy part of the R2 audience didn't want "gerry" (geriatric) music in the days of the old BBC messageboards. The move of the older R1 listeners to Radio 2 while R1 went for the younger segment meant there was a gap in the "BBC offer" for the lighter classical/light music audience. Radio 3 had to make room for them which, given the constraints of 24 hours of airtime, meant much of the more specialised R3 content was watered down or dropped completely.

When the pop world had R1 2 and 6 to go at why do we have to have so much dumped on R3? I particular why is Lizzie’s disconnected, disjointed, generally unpleasant music not on 6, rather than 3, always so unsubtly plugged on her Saturday Weekend Breakfast programme? Much of the late evening R3 agenda would be more appropriately be on R6!