The Eternal Breakfast Debate in a New Place

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  • oddoneout
    Full Member
    • Nov 2015
    • 9141

    Originally posted by Heldenleben View Post
    That depends on what you mean by tune . Schoenberg has tunes but you need a keen ear to whistle them...
    Didn't Schoenberg start off tuneful then thought better of it? I seem to remember hearing an early work and being surprised, but then decided he was perhaps the music equivalent of Picasso or Henry Moore.

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    • Serial_Apologist
      Full Member
      • Dec 2010
      • 37589

      Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post
      The problem is that they never change key.


      Which reminds me of that bit in Alan Bennett's Sermon from "Beyond the Fringe":

      "Life, you know, is rather like opening a tin of sardines. We're all of us looking for the key".

      I know: I've got it! It has to be in that well-known Northumbrian folk song - The Key Row!

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      • LMcD
        Full Member
        • Sep 2017
        • 8402

        Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post


        Which reminds me of that bit in Alan Bennett's Sermon from "Beyond the Fringe":

        "Life, you know, is rather like opening a tin of sardines. We're all of us looking for the key".

        I know: I've got it! It has to be in that well-known Northumbrian folk song - The Key Row!
        That certainly seems to make more sense than seeking the answer in the works of Matthew Locke.

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        • oddoneout
          Full Member
          • Nov 2015
          • 9141

          Transported back many decades by an item this morning - "O du lieber Augustin". Memories of German lessons where the tedium was very occasionally lightened by some singing, usually alternating between Augustin and "O Tannenbaum", but there was also a child's song about instruments of the orchestra along the lines of "pauken macht pom pom pom" and at Christmas the obligatory dirge of Stille Nacht.

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          • LMcD
            Full Member
            • Sep 2017
            • 8402

            Originally posted by oddoneout View Post
            Didn't Schoenberg start off tuneful then thought better of it? I seem to remember hearing an early work and being surprised, but then decided he was perhaps the music equivalent of Picasso or Henry Moore.
            I really enjoyed Schoenberg's 1916 march 'The Iron Brigade' which Petroc featured in this morning's 'Breakfast'.

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            • Bryn
              Banned
              • Mar 2007
              • 24688

              Originally posted by oddoneout View Post
              Didn't Schoenberg start off tuneful then thought better of it? I seem to remember hearing an early work and being surprised, but then decided he was perhaps the music equivalent of Picasso or Henry Moore.
              In that their early work demonstrated just how very advanced their grasp of their chosen discipline's established craft was?

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              • Serial_Apologist
                Full Member
                • Dec 2010
                • 37589

                Originally posted by Bryn View Post
                In that their early work demonstrated just how very advanced their grasp of their chosen discipline's established craft was?
                Many years ago I had a copy of Donald Mitchell's book "The Language of Modern Music", of which he spent a considerable proportion trying to draw parallels between Schoenberg's 12-tone method and Cubism - which had me thinking this to be a totally wrong path to pursue: Schoenberg's aesthetic being that of Expressionism, and in particular the Blaue Reiter group of artists, with whom he exhibited paintings of his own, whereas I think it would have been Stravinsky, along with Satie and others around Les Six he associated with for a time before moving to America, (not to mention Picasso of course!), who was more aligned with Cubism. And then, right at the end of his book, Mitchell mentions in an afterword that someone had drawn his attention to parallels between Schoenberg and Kandinsky, and he was in agreement, these not having previously occurred to him!

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                • french frank
                  Administrator/Moderator
                  • Feb 2007
                  • 30235

                  Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
                  Many years ago I had a copy of Donald Mitchell's book "The Language of Modern Music", of which he spent a considerable proportion trying to draw parallels between Schoenberg's 12-tone method and Cubism - which had me thinking this to be a totally wrong path to pursue: Schoenberg's aesthetic being that of Expressionism, and in particular the Blaue Reiter group of artists, with whom he exhibited paintings of his own, whereas I think it would have been Stravinsky, along with Satie and others around Les Six he associated with for a time before moving to America, (not to mention Picasso of course!), who was more aligned with Cubism. And then, right at the end of his book, Mitchell mentions in an afterword that someone had drawn his attention to parallels between Schoenberg and Kandinsky, and he was in agreement, these not having previously occurred to him!
                  So, was this discussed on Breakfast this morning?
                  It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

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                  • Serial_Apologist
                    Full Member
                    • Dec 2010
                    • 37589

                    Originally posted by french frank View Post
                    So, was this discussed on Breakfast this morning?
                    Probably not - I wasn't listening. What I do know is that I got out of bed on the right side this morning.

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                    • french frank
                      Administrator/Moderator
                      • Feb 2007
                      • 30235

                      Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
                      Probably not - I wasn't listening. What I do know is that I got out of bed on the right side this morning.
                      That explains why the answer wasn't a little more - acerbic, then
                      It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                      Comment

                      • oddoneout
                        Full Member
                        • Nov 2015
                        • 9141

                        Originally posted by Bryn View Post
                        In that their early work demonstrated just how very advanced their grasp of their chosen discipline's established craft was?
                        Yes, because it gave them the firm basis from which to experiment and move forward. I don't much like the music Schoenberg is best known for and I don't like all of the Picasso/Moore ditto, but I certainly don't take the " why didn't he carry on doing proper art/music" line that I have heard voiced so many times.

                        Comment

                        • Serial_Apologist
                          Full Member
                          • Dec 2010
                          • 37589

                          Originally posted by oddoneout View Post
                          Yes, because it gave them the firm basis from which to experiment and move forward. I don't much like the music Schoenberg is best known for and I don't like all of the Picasso/Moore ditto, but I certainly don't take the " why didn't he carry on doing proper art/music" line that I have heard voiced so many times.
                          I am not about to suggest what it is about Schoenberg's music that you find dislikeable for fear of being rightly accused of presumptuousness and picking up the wrong end of the stick. Suffice it to say that he did extend the handed on Austro-German Romantic tradition of Wagner and Brahms, rather than break in the manner of abandon keys-based composition methods, thereby uncovering psychological subtexts in that tradition analogous to those being uncovered by Freud, and by Expressionist painters and poets around the same time which would have remained unconvered and unacknowledged had not the received idiom the capacity to give them expression in music. For that I believe we should be grateful: art is there to reassure us that our perceptions and feelings are shared, and has always done so. And of course some of the music Schoenberg is less well known for marked a return to the earlier forms and the language in which they were expressed, but filtered through the experience of what had come between. Without "Erwartung" the "Kol Nidre", as one example with wide appeal, would never have existed.

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                          • kernelbogey
                            Full Member
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 5735

                            Originally posted by french frank View Post
                            So, was this discussed on Breakfast this morning?

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                            • LMcD
                              Full Member
                              • Sep 2017
                              • 8402

                              Originally posted by kernelbogey View Post
                              Yes, it was discussed - during the 0700 news summary, with a repeat at 0800. Unfortunately, my cheapo radio was unable to receive both at the same time.

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                              • teamsaint
                                Full Member
                                • Nov 2010
                                • 25193

                                Originally posted by LMcD View Post
                                Yes, it was discussed - during the 0700 news summary, with a repeat at 0800. Unfortunately, my cheapo radio was unable to receive both at the same time.
                                Nice place you have there L . Bit showy using it as an avatar IMO , but if you have it, flaunt it, I suppose .
                                I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

                                I am not a number, I am a free man.

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