The Eternal Breakfast Debate in a New Place

[oddoneout]

That depends on what you mean by tune . Schoenberg has tunes but you need a keen ear to whistle them...

Didn't Schoenberg start off tuneful then thought better of it? I seem to remember hearing an early work and being surprised, but then decided he was perhaps the music equivalent of Picasso or Henry Moore.

[Serial_Apologist]

The problem is that they never change key.

Which reminds me of that bit in Alan Bennett's Sermon from "Beyond the Fringe":

"Life, you know, is rather like opening a tin of sardines. We're all of us looking for the key".

I know: I've got it! It has to be in that well-known Northumbrian folk song - The Key Row!

[LMcD]

Which reminds me of that bit in Alan Bennett's Sermon from "Beyond the Fringe":

"Life, you know, is rather like opening a tin of sardines. We're all of us looking for the key".

I know: I've got it! It has to be in that well-known Northumbrian folk song - The Key Row!

That certainly seems to make more sense than seeking the answer in the works of Matthew Locke.

[oddoneout]

Transported back many decades by an item this morning - "O du lieber Augustin". Memories of German lessons where the tedium was very occasionally lightened by some singing, usually alternating between Augustin and "O Tannenbaum", but there was also a child's song about instruments of the orchestra along the lines of "pauken macht pom pom pom" and at Christmas the obligatory dirge of Stille Nacht.

[LMcD]

Didn't Schoenberg start off tuneful then thought better of it? I seem to remember hearing an early work and being surprised, but then decided he was perhaps the music equivalent of Picasso or Henry Moore.

I really enjoyed Schoenberg's 1916 march 'The Iron Brigade' which Petroc featured in this morning's 'Breakfast'.

[Bryn]

Didn't Schoenberg start off tuneful then thought better of it? I seem to remember hearing an early work and being surprised, but then decided he was perhaps the music equivalent of Picasso or Henry Moore.

In that their early work demonstrated just how very advanced their grasp of their chosen discipline's established craft was?

[Serial_Apologist]

In that their early work demonstrated just how very advanced their grasp of their chosen discipline's established craft was?

Many years ago I had a copy of Donald Mitchell's book "The Language of Modern Music", of which he spent a considerable proportion trying to draw parallels between Schoenberg's 12-tone method and Cubism - which had me thinking this to be a totally wrong path to pursue: Schoenberg's aesthetic being that of Expressionism, and in particular the Blaue Reiter group of artists, with whom he exhibited paintings of his own, whereas I think it would have been Stravinsky, along with Satie and others around Les Six he associated with for a time before moving to America, (not to mention Picasso of course!), who was more aligned with Cubism. And then, right at the end of his book, Mitchell mentions in an afterword that someone had drawn his attention to parallels between Schoenberg and Kandinsky, and he was in agreement, these not having previously occurred to him!

[french frank]

Many years ago I had a copy of Donald Mitchell's book "The Language of Modern Music", of which he spent a considerable proportion trying to draw parallels between Schoenberg's 12-tone method and Cubism - which had me thinking this to be a totally wrong path to pursue: Schoenberg's aesthetic being that of Expressionism, and in particular the Blaue Reiter group of artists, with whom he exhibited paintings of his own, whereas I think it would have been Stravinsky, along with Satie and others around Les Six he associated with for a time before moving to America, (not to mention Picasso of course!), who was more aligned with Cubism. And then, right at the end of his book, Mitchell mentions in an afterword that someone had drawn his attention to parallels between Schoenberg and Kandinsky, and he was in agreement, these not having previously occurred to him!

So, was this discussed on Breakfast this morning?

[Serial_Apologist]

So, was this discussed on Breakfast this morning?

Probably not - I wasn't listening. What I do know is that I got out of bed on the right side this morning.

[french frank]

Probably not - I wasn't listening. What I do know is that I got out of bed on the right side this morning.

That explains why the answer wasn't a little more - acerbic, then

[oddoneout]

In that their early work demonstrated just how very advanced their grasp of their chosen discipline's established craft was?

Yes, because it gave them the firm basis from which to experiment and move forward. I don't much like the music Schoenberg is best known for and I don't like all of the Picasso/Moore ditto, but I certainly don't take the " why didn't he carry on doing proper art/music" line that I have heard voiced so many times.

[Serial_Apologist]

Yes, because it gave them the firm basis from which to experiment and move forward. I don't much like the music Schoenberg is best known for and I don't like all of the Picasso/Moore ditto, but I certainly don't take the " why didn't he carry on doing proper art/music" line that I have heard voiced so many times.

I am not about to suggest what it is about Schoenberg's music that you find dislikeable for fear of being rightly accused of presumptuousness and picking up the wrong end of the stick. Suffice it to say that he did extend the handed on Austro-German Romantic tradition of Wagner and Brahms, rather than break in the manner of abandon keys-based composition methods, thereby uncovering psychological subtexts in that tradition analogous to those being uncovered by Freud, and by Expressionist painters and poets around the same time which would have remained unconvered and unacknowledged had not the received idiom the capacity to give them expression in music. For that I believe we should be grateful: art is there to reassure us that our perceptions and feelings are shared, and has always done so. And of course some of the music Schoenberg is less well known for marked a return to the earlier forms and the language in which they were expressed, but filtered through the experience of what had come between. Without "Erwartung" the "Kol Nidre", as one example with wide appeal, would never have existed.

[kernelbogey]

So, was this discussed on Breakfast this morning?

[LMcD]

Yes, it was discussed - during the 0700 news summary, with a repeat at 0800. Unfortunately, my cheapo radio was unable to receive both at the same time.

[teamsaint]

Yes, it was discussed - during the 0700 news summary, with a repeat at 0800. Unfortunately, my cheapo radio was unable to receive both at the same time.

Nice place you have there L . Bit showy using it as an avatar IMO , but if you have it, flaunt it, I suppose .