The Eternal Breakfast Debate in a New Place

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  • french frank
    Administrator/Moderator
    • Feb 2007
    • 30235

    Originally posted by oddoneout View Post
    Apologies for the rant which is not in any way intended as a personal attack.
    That's a relief

    Posing a question doesn't target any individual. It's a 'class query' by which I don't mean as in social class but as in 'class action'. A group of people who have something in common (e.g. they listen to Breakfast/Essential Classics) are still individuals who probably differ from each other in more ways than they they resemble them. So posing a question about 'the Breakfast listener' doesn't mean Listener A, and Listener B and You and Me. It simply asks about the feelings of a 'significant number' of that group. As I've mentioned before, my brother has a PhD, he has written books, he knows more about classical music than I do - but when he listens to the radio he listens to Classic FM, likes it and has no curiosity to investigate Radio 3. I don't assume that he is "incapable of … accessing more worthwhile intellectually challenging fare".

    Anything said about a group is a generalisation.
    It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

    Comment

    • Eine Alpensinfonie
      Host
      • Nov 2010
      • 20570

      Originally posted by french frank View Post
      What has Radio 3 gained? And what has it lost? This isn't a matter of who likes or doesn't like something, enjoys or hates whatever it is. It's about the wider cultural debate.
      Sadly, I suspect the ineptitude of the morning programmes will lose the very listeners it's allegedly trying to recruit. Classic FM does the same thing, and (ignoring the downside of the adverts) does it better than most of the current R3 team do.

      Comment

      • antongould
        Full Member
        • Nov 2010
        • 8778

        Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post
        Sadly, I suspect the ineptitude of the morning programmes will lose the very listeners it's allegedly trying to recruit. Classic FM does the same thing, and (ignoring the downside of the adverts) does it better than most of the current R3 team do.
        But how can you ignore “ the downside of the adverts “ ...... the few on Morning R3 annoy just about everyone ....... ??????

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        • french frank
          Administrator/Moderator
          • Feb 2007
          • 30235

          Originally posted by antongould View Post
          But how can you ignore “ the downside of the adverts “ ...... the few on Morning R3 annoy just about everyone ....... ??????
          At least the R3 adverts aren't for making wills, funeral plans or installing stairlifts.
          It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

          Comment

          • Eine Alpensinfonie
            Host
            • Nov 2010
            • 20570

            Originally posted by antongould View Post
            But how can you ignore “ the downside of the adverts “ ...... the few on Morning R3 annoy just about everyone ....... ??????
            Perhaps the trouble with R3 adverts/trailers is the insistence in talking over classical excerpts superimposed one on top of the other. I agree that the CFM adverts are annoying too, but commercial stations have no choice. The BBC does have a choice, and proceeds to sell Schubert as though it's Pedigree Chum.

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            • muzzer
              Full Member
              • Nov 2013
              • 1190

              Jiminy 4 pages I’ve not read. But no offence meant to EA. It’s the bosses’ fault. Her show Unclassified is superb. What ‘classical’ music ( whatever that is) needs is new to it listeners. Come one come all. And this board will nurture you too [ ale may have been taken ]

              Comment

              • oddoneout
                Full Member
                • Nov 2015
                • 9141

                Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post
                Perhaps the trouble with R3 adverts/trailers is the insistence in talking over classical excerpts superimposed one on top of the other. I agree that the CFM adverts are annoying too, but commercial stations have no choice. The BBC does have a choice, and proceeds to sell Schubert as though it's Pedigree Chum.
                The main trouble with R3 adverts(apart from their existence in the first place) is that they are pushed with the frequency of TV ones(every 15 to 20 mins), but the repetition factor is tighter so that it is all too often the same one(they only do one at once) several times in a row.
                CFM listeners moving across to escape adverts do comment on the R3 ones, some finding them almost as annoying, not least since there is no commercial justification.

                Comment

                • french frank
                  Administrator/Moderator
                  • Feb 2007
                  • 30235

                  Originally posted by oddoneout View Post
                  CFM listeners moving across to escape adverts do comment on the R3 ones, some finding them almost as annoying, not least since there is no commercial justification.
                  The BBC is only selling itself (so that's all right). If adverts (however annoying) work for commercial stations, why would they not work for the BBC?

                  Way back in the mists of time, I discovered that the person at R3 in charge of the 'promotional' trails had a degree in music (if I remember, from Bristol University). I had the temerity to ask on the messageboard why he didn't go to Roger Wright and ask for a 'proper job' - by which, obviously, I meant one suited to someone with a music degree. All hell broke loose and I was ticked off by a producer for being 'rude' to a member of R3 staff, and the man himself turned up (I can't remember if it was an email to me or whether on the messageboard) to say that if people were angry about the trails it meant they had noticed them, so they were doing their job.

                  So that's us told. (Incidentally, I believe it used to be BBC Marketing that dictated how often the trails should be run, at what times, and if they were cross trails to another service, which other services had to take them.
                  It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                  Comment

                  • Ein Heldenleben
                    Full Member
                    • Apr 2014
                    • 6740

                    Originally posted by french frank View Post
                    The BBC is only selling itself (so that's all right). If adverts (however annoying) work for commercial stations, why would they not work for the BBC?

                    Way back in the mists of time, I discovered that the person at R3 in charge of the 'promotional' trails had a degree in music (if I remember, from Bristol University). I had the temerity to ask on the messageboard why he didn't go to Roger Wright and ask for a 'proper job' - by which, obviously, I meant one suited to someone with a music degree. All hell broke loose and I was ticked off by a producer for being 'rude' to a member of R3 staff, and the man himself turned up (I can't remember if it was an email to me or whether on the messageboard) to say that if people were angry about the trails it meant they had noticed them, so they were doing their job.

                    So that's us told. (Incidentally, I believe it used to be BBC Marketing that dictated how often the trails should be run, at what times, and if they were cross trails to another service, which other services had to take them.
                    The idea that trail making is not a ‘proper job’ is a sentiment to which “every bosom returns an echo” . Trails used to be made by producers . They then got taken over by specialist “marketeers“ and “creatives”. I am not saying trail-making is not a skill - but it is a very narrow one.
                    Incidentally as this appears to be an active strand can I unashamedly plug Tim MacInnerny’s magnificent poetry reading on Words and Music last night? His reading of Hardy and Donne last night had us mesmerised on a long trip on the A303.

                    Comment

                    • Cockney Sparrow
                      Full Member
                      • Jan 2014
                      • 2281

                      When I do listen to any - particularly morning - output an off switch or dial within easy reach is necessary. The likes of a - for example - compressed audio, distorted and harsh John Cooper Clark crashing into my consciousness led to the need for an immediate switch off. Add to that the repetition of the very same adverts as mentioned here.

                      Trouble is, if I'm mainly engaged in some task - we all have lots to do - I sometimes forget to switch back on after the advert. I have got better at this - one of my offspring has a very accurate internal timer for commercial TV ad breaks, and I'm getting there.
                      Last edited by Cockney Sparrow; 26-10-20, 12:21.

                      Comment

                      • oddoneout
                        Full Member
                        • Nov 2015
                        • 9141

                        Originally posted by Cockney Sparrow View Post
                        When I do listen to any - particularly morning - output an off switch or dial within easy reach is necessary. The likes of a - for example - compressed audio, distorted and harsh John Cooper Clark crashing into my consciousness led to the need for an immediate switch off. Add to that the repetition of the very same adverts as mentioned here.

                        Trouble is, if I'm mainly engaged in some task - we all have lots to do - I sometimes forget to switch back on after the advert. I have got better at this - one of my offspring has a very accurate internal timer for commercial TV ad breaks, and I'm getting there.
                        I've mentioned this on here more than once, and also direct to BBC. As far as I'm concerned it's a double negative -so to speak - as I avoid the programme/product being trailed and I miss the output (sometimes for extended periods)after the offending item. I'm getting quite good at sensing when an intrusion will occur - adjacent to the headline slots are inevitable - and can often pre-empt hearing it all, so I don't even know what it is that is being 'sold'.

                        Comment

                        • cloughie
                          Full Member
                          • Dec 2011
                          • 22114

                          Originally posted by oddoneout View Post
                          I've mentioned this on here more than once, and also direct to BBC. As far as I'm concerned it's a double negative -so to speak - as I avoid the programme/product being trailed and I miss the output (sometimes for extended periods)after the offending item. I'm getting quite good at sensing when an intrusion will occur - adjacent to the headline slots are inevitable - and can often pre-empt hearing it all, so I don't even know what it is that is being 'sold'.
                          I dislike the trailers but I ‘m more likely to switch off music items which either I dislike or feel ‘not now!’

                          Comment

                          • french frank
                            Administrator/Moderator
                            • Feb 2007
                            • 30235

                            Originally posted by oddoneout View Post
                            I've mentioned this on here more than once, and also direct to BBC. As far as I'm concerned it's a double negative -so to speak - as I avoid the programme/product being trailed and I miss the output (sometimes for extended periods)after the offending item. I'm getting quite good at sensing when an intrusion will occur - adjacent to the headline slots are inevitable - and can often pre-empt hearing it all, so I don't even know what it is that is being 'sold'.
                            It's something I can't understand. I offered them the suggestion that they might devote, say, five whole minutes, to the continuity announcer telling listeners, just before the hourly (!) news bulletin, about all the gorgeous stuff they have in store later in the day, and perhaps a few things during the week. And leave the rest of the hour to playing music, preferably a few longer pieces, with only the announcements, context and - music. They could have the programme announcements on just before 7am, 8am AND 9am. If people really had heard it enough, it would no different from hearing the same news on the hour. And people might actually find it useful, and be ready with their pencils and notebooks to note down what sounds interesting
                            It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                            Comment

                            • Frances_iom
                              Full Member
                              • Mar 2007
                              • 2411

                              Lord Lever's dictum re advertising was that he knew he was wasting half his money but which half. However I suspect it being run by marketing means that no check is made on its success but that maybe yet more money should be spent to 'improve' the production + also to give the punters 'better access' ie more repetition. FF's suggestion will go down like a lead balloon - the producers of these annoyances are well paid, well connected and deaf to all comments (but this is all too typical of BBC management).

                              Comment

                              • oddoneout
                                Full Member
                                • Nov 2015
                                • 9141

                                Originally posted by french frank View Post
                                It's something I can't understand. I offered them the suggestion that they might devote, say, five whole minutes, to the continuity announcer telling listeners, just before the hourly (!) news bulletin, about all the gorgeous stuff they have in store later in the day, and perhaps a few things during the week. And leave the rest of the hour to playing music, preferably a few longer pieces, with only the announcements, context and - music. They could have the programme announcements on just before 7am, 8am AND 9am. If people really had heard it enough, it would no different from hearing the same news on the hour. And people might actually find it useful, and be ready with their pencils and notebooks to note down what sounds interesting
                                The frantic pushing of BBC Sounds hasn't helped since it has added to the volume of dross to be directed at us, not least by exhortations to listen again almost before the programme in question has finished, despite the fact that there will have been at least one such public service announcement during the programme itself.
                                During the morning schedules there will be presenter initiated references to items/programmes later in the day/week, often used as a hook for a piece to be played or theme to be followed up. That seems a good way to draw attention to such things and has the merit of not being intrusive or repetitive.

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