The Eternal Breakfast Debate in a New Place

[cloughie]

Which one are you ?
Filmed the Polperro Fisherman’s choir once in the 90’s - only had two fishermen in it ....

I was in the baritones, fourth from the left in bottom left section. Now sing 2nd tenor in another choir ( or will be hopefully again at some future date ).

[antongould]

I was in the baritones, fourth from the left in bottom left section. Now sing 2nd tenor in another choir.

Great to put a face to the name cloughers .... good singing too
.... I may send it to Betty .... I am sure she will play it .....

[cloughie]

Great to put a face to the name cloughers .... good singing too
.... I may send it to Betty .... I am sure she will play it .....

My cover is blown!

[french frank]

Do you not think that, for a fair number of people, several of whom contact the programme, without being prompted, to express their interest and gratitude, remaining on the bottom rung, as you put it, passing the morning agreeably by listening to the Breakfast programme cheers them up and even gives them the confidence (I would go so far as to say, for some, even the courage), to face the remainder of yet another day of personal hardship or loneliness, grim headlines and statistics?

[Have you forgotten Puppet on a String????? ]

As for the Covid lockdown: the title of this thread is "The Eternal Breakfast Debate in a New Place", Eternal because this thread was started ten years ago when the forum opened, as a continuation of the endless debate about Breakfast on the old BBC messageboard. So I wouldn't entirely buy the coronavirus explanation.

I can only repeat that if someone enjoys it, they enjoy it which is a good thing for them. It's no consolation to those who used to listen to R3 with great profit and now don't bother with the station at all (what about their day of personal hardship or loneliness, grim headlines and statistics?). What has Radio 3 gained? And what has it lost? This isn't a matter of who likes or doesn't like something, enjoys or hates whatever it is. It's about the wider cultural debate.

[Leinster Lass]

[Have you forgotten Puppet on a String????? ]

As for the Covid lockdown: the title of this thread is "The Eternal Breakfast Debate in a New Place", Eternal because this thread was started ten years ago when the forum opened, as a continuation of the endless debate about Breakfast on the old BBC messageboard. So I wouldn't entirely buy the coronavirus explanation.

I can only repeat that if someone enjoys it, they enjoy it which is a good thing for them. It's no consolation to those who used to listen to R3 with great profit and now don't bother with the station at all (what about their day of personal hardship or loneliness, grim headlines and statistics?). What has Radio 3 gained? And what has it lost? This isn't a matter of who likes or doesn't like something, enjoys or hates whatever it is. It's about the wider cultural debate.

That's me told then!
(No hard feelings, old chap)

[teamsaint]

First, to be fair, the quote was made at the time when we first launched our website (it's still one of the featured quotes), so things have also changed in the almost 20 years since then. I agree that R3 has a concept of itself as a 'trusted guide', though there are few presenters who genuinely seem able to fulfil that role, and don't seem employed to do so. In an ever expanding musical horizon, even the oldest, most informed listener has plenty to learn about, new music, old music that's been newly discovered, new ideas, new ways of performing, interpreting. How wonderful to have a radio station that is a 'trusted guide' in all that. Most of the time R3 - apparently - treats all listeners as the same, and placed somewhere near the bottom of the learning curve.

From which, three things: maybe it does provide what 'newbie' listeners need to get on the first rung of the ladder in discovering what classical music has to offer. But maybe it doesn't provide enough incentive, inspiration or lead to encourage anyone to climb further. And, then, maybe, people are quite happy to remain on the bottom rung, now and again hearing something new that they like, passing the morning agreeably with Breakfast and Essential Classics?

Ah, ok, I didn’t realise the quote was from so long ago, which obviously makes a difference.

I take your point about inspration , but I guess there is a certain level of personal opinion on what that means.

I suppose that part of the role of Breakfast is to point the casual “ lifestyle” audience ( on its way to work , those who just prefer a “ lighter mix in the morning” etc) towards other more in depth programming. I think they do this to a point , given the other programming that they are able to point to.
Pity they can’t direct towards “Discovering Music” though.

[french frank]

Pity they can’t direct towards “Discovering Music” though.

A quid pro quo for focusing so much on the casual "lifestyle" listener. I have a story to tell about what the casual "lifestyle" listener told the BBC about Discovering Music; but in that light, it had to go. In fact, in 22 years, I can think of only one !NEW! programme aimed at the "Discovering Music-Record Review devotee": CD Masters. And as things go, it went. There's still the Early Music Show, though I'm not sure that that's quite what it was when people like Catherine Bott and David Wulstan featured.

[seabright]

I like the Trenet "La Mer" and so evidently does Mr Bean ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Iykn4mBT9U

[Pulcinella]

I've just spotted this on the Breakfast web page:

How listening to R3 Breakfast can reduce stress, aid mindfulness and cure morning breath.

Personally, I've found toothpaste or mouthwash quite effective.

[oddoneout]

[Have you forgotten Puppet on a String????? ]

As for the Covid lockdown: the title of this thread is "The Eternal Breakfast Debate in a New Place", Eternal because this thread was started ten years ago when the forum opened, as a continuation of the endless debate about Breakfast on the old BBC messageboard. So I wouldn't entirely buy the coronavirus explanation.

I can only repeat that if someone enjoys it, they enjoy it which is a good thing for them. It's no consolation to those who used to listen to R3 with great profit and now don't bother with the station at all (what about their day of personal hardship or loneliness, grim headlines and statistics?). What has Radio 3 gained? And what has it lost? This isn't a matter of who likes or doesn't like something, enjoys or hates whatever it is. It's about the wider cultural debate.

Which brings me back to my repeated point about not needing the whole morning to be a similar format. Things have moved on, and the breakfast set-up isn't likely to disappear(except as part of general removal/evisceration of R3, which of course these days isn't as unlikely as it once was I fear), but that isn't a justification for running it past 9am.
In terms of those who now don't bother with R3 at all I don't believe that's all the fault of Breakfast or even Breakfast plus EC, although it doubtless has contributed if only by increasing general irritation and disappointment, coupled with the many alternative music sources. I miss the various talking about music type programmes, all the more noticeable when the occasional one turns up and has us saying "why don't they do this more/use this person more", and have become increasingly fed-up with what seem to me the limited (in view of what is in theory available repertoire-wise) offerings in concerts etc.There have been and are composers outside Europe, and even the emphasis on European music seems to miss out much, or so it seems to the subjective view of this 'what do I know' listener. It may not all be great music but that isn't the point as far as I'm concerned, I like variety and the chance to compare and contrast. I still remember the pleasure I got from an afternoon devoted to recent antipodean music several years ago, nothing to frighten the horses and some I suspect not actually of that much merit or staying power but memorable for its very obvious difference to, say, UK equivalents.
The choice of music on Breakfast is far less lazy and repetitive than it was(and EC has moved on in that respect as well), so that now when duplication occurs I find myself noticing it rather than screening it out. I did get to a point on that front where I wasn't listening as much because it was so irritating and CFM. What would improve matters even further as I have said before is if the dratted trails were removed. They are crass, unnecessary, assume we have the memory of a goldfish and take up far too much time and airspace which could be put to much better use; I think I'm not the only person who not infrequently actively or subconsciously avoids a programme that has been subjected to such exposure.

[french frank]

In fact, in 22 years, I can think of only one !NEW! programme aimed at the "Discovering Music-Record Review devotee": CD Masters. And as things go, it went. There's still the Early Music Show, though I'm not sure that that's quite what it was when people like Catherine Bott and David Wulstan featured.

An addendum to that comment and veering away from Breakfast (and why not?): I had not caught up with Sounds Connected, and have only listened to one episode. It's an interesting attempt - though I don't think I would become a devotee if it were going to continue much longer, though it seems that next week is the final episode.

The pluses in my view were a refreshing choice of (short ) pieces, and a presenter who had chosen them and was able to explain why: a younger sibling, a younger sibling Jewish and persecuted, a black composer and persecution, who used folk song, a 17th-c composer using folk songs to depict war, love. There is an artificiality about links of this sort but the presenter, who sounds disconcertingly young, spoke like a musician. And there was no one else to exchange chatter with. She was talking to the audience, not a chum.

The minuses were not hers but R3's: the presenter talking between snatches of music, six pieces in 30 minutes where I felt the presenter would have been capable of saying more about fewer pieces …

What has this to do with the Breakfast discussion? I felt this was a genuine and serious attempt at introducing people who are relatively new to classical music to some interesting ideas and a variety of music. How many of the new Breakfast audience will find a once a week 30-minute programme on at midnight? And will the new audience which enjoys Breakfast have any interest in something that is more 'guiding' than 'entertaining'?

[Did this programme replace the somewhat condescending Classical Fix?]

[cloughie]

I've just spotted this on the Breakfast web page:

How listening to R3 Breakfast can reduce stress, aid mindfulness and cure morning breath.

Personally, I've found toothpaste or mouthwash quite effective.

Or that first morning cup of tea!

[cloughie]

To be sure, I don't know what that's all about, but I do know that it's bit late (sic) for M. Trenet (1913-2001) to revisit his classic recording*. I find his upward key shift almost as exciting as what Mr Logan does at the end of 'What's Another Year?', but I'm not musically trained and, what's worse, Irish and therefore inevitably emotional in my response to some songs and performances. Is it bad to shift things up a key? As for intellectual challenges, I'm happy to wait until Monday nights when I can attempt the odd answer in 'Only Connect' while pretending I don't have any good reason to envy Victoria Coren Mitchell.

* I don't faint, scream or turn the radio off in disgust if they play Bobbie Darin's version.

...or even Robbie Williams.

[oddoneout]

And will the new audience which enjoys Breakfast have any interest in something that is more 'guiding' than 'entertaining'?

Quite possibly, as would the 'old' audience, but they won't be given the chance to find out will they? I haven't heard it but what you describe sounds like the kind of transition to post midday fare that many of us advocate and would welcome.
There are repeated assumptions and assertions(explicit or otherwise) about the audience for the morning schedule which I wish would be backed up with fact one way or the other. Those who have migrated from CFM are automatically pigeon-holed in one way, those R3 listeners who soil their ears and minds in the morning are evidently lesser mortals, and so on. What all those views have in common is the idea that just because we listen to this we are incapable of, or do not wish to consider, accessing more worthwhile intellectually challenging fare. Post-midday we all disappear to our sad little limited aural lives on other stations or online.
Apologies for the rant which is not in any way intended as a personal attack.

[Leinster Lass]

Quite possibly, as would the 'old' audience, but they won't be given the chance to find out will they? I haven't heard it but what you describe sounds like the kind of transition to post midday fare that many of us advocate and would welcome.
There are repeated assumptions and assertions(explicit or otherwise) about the audience for the morning schedule which I wish would be backed up with fact one way or the other. Those who have migrated from CFM are automatically pigeon-holed in one way, those R3 listeners who soil their ears and minds in the morning are evidently lesser mortals, and so on. What all those views have in common is the idea that just because we listen to this we are incapable of, or do not wish to consider, accessing more worthwhile intellectually challenging fare. Post-midday we all disappear to our sad little limited aural lives on other stations or online.
Apologies for the rant which is not in any way intended as a personal attack.

I suspect some people may have migrated from what English friends describe to me as the "unrelenting doom and gloom of the 'Today' programme".
One thing I have already learned is that the Forum is indeed a broad church, some of whose adherents hold strong, but eloquently expressed, views!